Support. Hopefully this isnt like the occupation article where someone was working on it but not ready. I was looking for an article to spruce up and maybe make featured, but this one's already there and with no red links in the entire article! Ben Sisqo 23:10, 26 Sep 2005 (UTC)
Toby... Would you rather have it be like These are the Voyages? And I say that with respect toward Defiant and Shran, it's just too long for our purposes. Ben Sisqo 04:34, 24 Sep 2005 (UTC)
Neutral based on the fact that I know nothing about TOS and can't judge the background. I've also only glanced over the summary, and assuming Emissary is the "right" length, it may be a little short, but not enough to oppose based on length. --Schrei 06:05, 24 Sep 2005 (UTC)
You guys make some good points, opposition withdrawn. I moved it back to the top of the page. Tobyk777 18:21, 24 Sep 2005 (UTC)
Support. I have tried to fix some tense changes, but as my grammar is not the best, someone should probably double check it. I also wonder if there is more information available concerning how they did the mergning of the old footage with the new. That would be fascinating. Its a good article in any case. Makon 18:58, 24 Sep 2005 (UTC)
Oppose. I don't think the summery is Featured Article-quality yet. Ottens 09:20, 25 Sep 2005 (UTC)
Can you please give some other reason? I really don't want another it's too long/it's not long enough debate. And that's not targeting you or anyone else - it's just that length is a highly subjective criterion of which everyone obviously has a unique definition. --Schrei 10:03, 25 Sep 2005 (UTC)
Well then, what, in my opinion, an episode page should look like to be a Featured Article: the page should feature a short description of the episode at the top of the page (and that means more than simply one line); then it should feature a detailed act-by-act summery of the episode's content, accompanied by a number of images which illustrate the text; then there should be some memorable quotes; and then there should be an extended background information section (more than merely naming a few remarkable fact, but really). Thus, "Yesterday's Enterprise" is in my opinion what comes closest to my idea of a nearly-perfect episode page, though the summery could be breaken down in act-sections for clearity. "Trials and Tribble-ations" hardly fulfills any of my criteria, and thus I oppose this nomination. Ottens 12:33, 25 Sep 2005 (UTC)
There's one in every crowd... Ben Sisqo 16:22, 25 Sep 2005 (UTC)
There's one what in every crowd? Ottens 16:29, 25 Sep 2005 (UTC)
Yeah, in any given group of people theres always someone who will make a stink about something even after it's been decided upon. Ben Sisqo 16:33, 25 Sep 2005 (UTC)
What exactly has been decided upon? I wasn't aware there had been a change in policy? Ottens 16:48, 25 Sep 2005 (UTC)
Support. I recently watched the episode, and I copyedited this article thinking I could add to the summary, but I found myself quite liking its compact nature. It doesn't skip anything (I added some minor details) and is probably a better summary than Yesterday's Enterprise in my opinion. That said, Ben Sisqo doesn't know what he's talking about. Nothing has been agreed upon, which is why we have so much trouble with this issue in the first place. --Schrei 17:44, 25 Sep 2005 (UTC)
Oppose. Whilst I heartily disagree with Ottens' view of summary detail, I do think more information as I mentioned above is necessary. This has nothing about how they did the merging of the two episodes, and it's hard to believe such a memorable episode would have no such information available. Makon 00:46, 26 Sep 2005 (UTC)
Comment. I've added a lot of information to the page, and I think everyone will agree that it's more or less complete now unless I missed very minor things. My above support vote was mostly based on the length issue because I knew the background info was available and hadn't added it yet, but now there's no reason this can't be featured. --Schrei 03:05, 26 Sep 2005 (UTC)
Wow. I take it back, so my original vote stands. Nicely done! Surely Ottens will change his mind as well once he sees this. Makon 04:46, 26 Sep 2005 (UTC)
My point was its obvious we dont want uberlong summaries and this one is fine. Ben Sisqo 09:06, 26 Sep 2005 (UTC)
I'm withdrawing my oppose. Although there may be a few little things that could be improved, I think it's quite up to Featured Article-status now. Good work, Schrei! Ottens 14:51, 26 Sep 2005 (UTC)
Support. I don't usually go for episodes as Featured Articles but this one is just what featured eps should be, IMO. Summary of manageable/readable length, and extensive information on production, background, etc. This is what The Cage should be. Logan 5 17:07, 26 Sep 2005 (UTC)
Oppose. I hardly believe this article qualifies as an example of "Memory Alpha's community work". While the article may be "complete" in the sense that it includes all the information available on the subject, that doesn't necessarily mean it *must* be a featured article. Ottens 21:19, 25 Sep 2005 (UTC)
Comment At least it's not an episode or a user page... 1985 09:45, 26 Sep 2005 (UTC)
Support Who keeps striking my votes??? --Vedek Dukat 00:28, 23 Sep 2005 (UTC)
Because they appear to be placed at random --Alan del Beccio 01:34, 23 Sep 2005 (UTC)
Well theres that and then theres the fact hed only been registered 2 days prior to voting and the quasi-vandalistic edits. Ben Sisqo 01:30, 24 Sep 2005 (UTC)
Support. As far as background info, it has more than some existing FA episodes, and the length seems like a good "middle ground" between The Cage and These are the Voyages. --Schrei 02:31, 23 Sep 2005 (UTC)
Oppose - A summary that is not clear enough and a background section that repeats information. In regards to the summary, I think it's a good length, but I also think that it should be noted whenever a character enters or leaves a scene. When I read this, it seemed like Sisko was still with Dax during her Orb experience! I don't remember that from the episode, although I could be wrong. --Defiant | Talk 12:00, 24 Sep 2005 (UTC)
Support and move to strike that objection. It's established that we don't want it to tell every time someone does something... and I don't know what you meant about it repeating information. Vedek Dukat 17:37, 24 Sep 2005 (UTC)
Firstly, my opinions regarding this process and in general are just as valid as yours are. Secondly, I didn't ask for it to be changed to "every time someone does something", it just makes a summary clearer if it notes any time that a character enters or leaves. Thirdly, the fact that the Vulcan captain goes on to play Martok is repeated in the background information section. I didn't change it, because I don't know which version to remove. Lastly, you seem to be quite immature, as you are clearly not willing to acknowledge my opinion just because it differs from your own. That's not a "personal attack" or anything, just an observation. --Defiant | Talk 18:27, 24 Sep 2005 (UTC)
Support. Should overwhelming consensus override single votes? I am not trying to be confrontational, but I see nothing wrong here. This summary telled me enough, and I've not seen the episode yet. I would also like to point out that you cannot vote twice and I have stricken the second vote accordingly. Ironic considering the suggestion that followed your vote! Makon 18:31, 24 Sep 2005 (UTC)
I also believe someone removed the repetition since it doesn't appear there. Makon 18:32, 24 Sep 2005 (UTC)
Schrei did, I just hadn't checked the article since then. However, I still oppose this article, as I believe it could be clearer that Sisko is not with Dax during her Orb experience. Once, that's done, I'll be quite willing to withdraw my opposing vote and support this article. --Defiant | Talk 18:54, 24 Sep 2005 (UTC)
Couldn't you have fixed that error? I did just now, so I think it's ready. Makon 19:03, 24 Sep 2005 (UTC)
I re-read the article and was about to support this nomination when I realized that the Acts are wrong for this episode. The script is divided into 8 Acts, whereas this only has 5. Consequently, I think the Acts should either be corrected, renamed to descriptive terms that fit the individual sections, or removed altogether. There are also 3 more log entries that aren't in the summary, but I don't think that's a reason for objecting this nomination. --Defiant | Talk 23:03, 24 Sep 2005 (UTC)
You know... That occurred to me when I read the article, but I didn't think about it. It's like those optical illusions - at first you think it looks fine and then suddenly you do a double take and go hey wait a second... :) --Schrei 23:06, 24 Sep 2005 (UTC)
Someone condensed the scenes into sections like how it keeps going back and forth between the wormhole the station and the crew except someone else tried to put it into a five act format? I don't get it but I watched the episode to figure out how the hell they put a two part episode in five acts and i think its FINALLY straightened out... Ben Sisqo 03:09, 25 Sep 2005 (UTC)
Comment. How weird! I didn't think about the acts at all, because it seemed complete and appeared to cover everything. Thank you for fixing it! Makon 00:36, 26 Sep 2005 (UTC)
Comment Why does it give five paragraphs for one act and only one (plus the log) for another? Also, would it be appropriate to include here information about designing the station, conceiving the series, etc? That would be nice to learn about but it might be inappropriate for an episode article. 1985 15:33, 26 Sep 2005 (UTC)
Well, I think someone added the nomination notice but forgot to add the nomination, so I'm doing it for them and supporting it. Vedek Dukat 02:32, 24 Sep 2005 (UTC)
Support. Yes, that was me... Sorry about that, I did the same thing with a delete template that later turned out to be the wrong template and placed on an article that shouldn't be deleted. I can't get anything right tonight. :oP Ben Sisqo 04:32, 24 Sep 2005 (UTC)
Oppose. The background info is missing key information on a lot of the characters and other relevant info. Namely, that Nana Visitor's character is a stand in for DC Fontana. There's also no mention of the classic science fiction writers that are mentioned in the episode. And the summary could use some copy-editing for links and style. Logan 5 05:14, 24 Sep 2005 (UTC)
Weak oppose. I agree that this needs a peer review and copyediting. However, this has a lot of potential as far as background information. Some stuff (like the KC Hunter part) is already on other pages and just needs to be consolidated, but like Logan said, other information probably needs to be added. This will also give me a chance to fix something that's always bugged me: All that annoying "This person was the only one to do this and that and the other person didn't appear in this episode" Jeopardy info needs to be in a trivia section. :P --Schrei 06:05, 24 Sep 2005 (UTC)
This article has a good summary, and extensive background information. It seems to be the kind of article that users want as Featured Articles. --Defiant | Talk 12:21, 21 Sep 2005 (UTC)
Mild oppose. This is much closer to what I think a Featured episode should be, but I don't think it's complete. The summary is a good length, but I think Continuation could make more detailed references to "The Menagarie" (and some continuity porn about the USS Talos, Christopher Pike Medal of Valor, and so on). Landmarks could use a little more info on why they rejected it, yet requested a new pilot, and what changes they specifically asked for if any. There could be further elaborations in the Background about the first appearance of the Orion Slave Women, and in Cast about how or why Pike was replaced with Kirk for the next pilot and so on. Logan 5 10:02, 21 Sep 2005 (EDT)
Comment. I chose not to enter the quagmire of TATV's nomination, I'm not sure what the heck kind of vote "Lukewarm" is for Crossover, and I have issues with the claim that Emissary has a "better" summary than TATV... But while I greatly respect your work, Defiant, you seem to have nominated this article more "to make a point" than anything. Doesn't this nomination just throw gasoline on the fire of the episode debate? --Schrei 11:56, 21 Sep 2005 (EDT)
Basically, I'm just trying to find out the most favorable method of episode articles, if you understand what I mean. As TATV was rejected for length, I'm trying to find out what episode articles should be like. At the moment, it seems like users prefer less summary and more background info, like this episode article. If users reject to this article, it should give a better idea of how it could be improved and how episode articles in general can be improved. --Defiant | Talk 17:14, 21 Sep 2005 (UTC)
I haven't participated in these discussions yet (and I definitely think this topic should be discussed elsewhere, not on the nominations page), but I think Logan is right. Basically, a good "summary" should summarize the episode content and not simply retell it, and a good "episode article" should consist of more than just a lengthy summary. As such, I consider this a better episode article than others. -- Cid Highwind 13:29, 21 Sep 2005 (EDT)
Oppose. This nomination must be a joke. The summary must be expanded in far more detail for it to be worthy of featured status. Ottens 14:12, 21 Sep 2005 (EDT)
That's actually being debated right now in policy and other areas. The article for TATV is being opposed in part because its summary is far too long in some opinions. Logan 5 19:48, 21 Sep 2005 (UTC)
Okay, I know there is currently a discussion going on about nominating episode articles, but work began on this episode's summary long before that discussion began, and that work is now complete. This was a collaborative effort between Defiant and myself and I believe is very worthy of becoming a featured article. It includes an extensive and very well-written summary (again, by Defiant and myself), images, background info, quotes, and even a chronology of the dates specified in the episode to assist in keeping track of events. In my opinion, this was a very emotional and memorable episode and the integrity and quality of the article and the work that was put into it justifies its becoming a featured article. *Support. --From Andoria with Love 17:22, 18 Sep 2005 (UTC)
Comment. This article reads too much like an episode summary. --Schrei 17:26, 18 Sep 2005 (UTC)
This IS an episode summary!!Tobyk777 18:24, 24 Sep 2005 (UTC)
I think that's called sarcasm... I agree (if this is what he was saying) that there are way too many episodes on this page and only poor loyal Solbor to stand against them. 1985 15:36, 26 Sep 2005 (UTC)
Comment. I may be putting my head in the noose for this but... is the chronology really necessary? It looks a little excessive, and seems to be a rehash of the references in the main text. It's only purpose seems to be to give dates to the events mentioned in the main text. Can't you merge the chronology into the main text? --Oshah 20:41, 18 Sep 2005 (UTC)
Support - As stated by "From Andoria with Love", I contributed to the article. According to the nomination policy, however, my vote is still valid. --Defiant | Talk 12:06, 20 Sep 2005 (EDT)
Comment. Without fully opposing: this article strikes me as complete to the point of being TOO detailed. It reads as an overlong summary, without anything that actually expands on the episode or MA in general. Logan 5 15:55, 20 Sep 2005 (UTC)
To elaborate: For me, an episode article would actually expand on the episode or MA if more attention was given to the backrgound area. Episodes like "Affliction" are the perfect place to discuss the decades-long debate about the different appearances in Klingons along with all the speculation by fans about the differences but it only gets 1-2 sentences in the current version. Episodes like TaTV should talk about the references at length, possibly the overall ratings issue etc with ENT; it should discuss the differences (or possible differences) between the Coalition and Federation, the controversy over Trip's death and much more. To me, long blow-by-blow summaries are not that interesting to read and don't give a casual visitor anything they can't get by actually watching the episode, whereas background, like the chronology puts the episode in the context of Trek and meta-Trek. Logan 5 12:32, 20 Sep 2005 (EDT)
Oppose(first oppose or support vote ever) I find this a very long episode summary, although summary is not the correct word anymore. I even did'nt have the energy to read the whole article but to me it does not read 'nice' so to speak. I find it confusing and have some problems with the following paragraphs.
Troi replies that she has never run the holoprogram and may have visited the craft as a child, but tends to get all the museum ships confused. When Riker invites the counselor to visit the recreation of the historic vessel and join him in the holodeck, Troi gratefully objects, afraid that she could miss an appointment she has in an hour. Holding his hand out for hers, Riker insists that she accompany him and assures her that she will not be late for her appointment. Troi soon accepts the commander's invitation and they exit the briefing room together.
I think it is 're creation' or 're-creation' (as far as I know they are not playing tennis), ' and join him in the holodeck ' should be ' and to join him on the holodeck '. Furthermore Troi is afraid to miss an appointment so I think it should be ' afraid that she might miss an appointment ' or ' afraid she might miss the appointment she has in an hour '. Troi does or does not accept the invitation, soon seems irrelevant here. ' Riker insists that she accompany him and assures her that she will not be late for her appointment, whereupon Troi accepts the commander's invitation '
As Riker stands, his head almost collides with the room's ceiling, but Troi quickly alerts him and the commander manages to avoid the roof. Riker observes that there is no fish tank in Archer's ready room, whereas a pet lionfish named Livingston is kept in a tank in the ready room of Captain Jean-Luc Picard, the commanding officer of the Enterprise-D
I believe that your head does not collides but hits the ceiling, objects collide.
the commanding officer of.. seems irrelevant to me, everyone knows who Picard is and what he does. Who and what Picard is, should be extablished sooner.
On the bridge, Riker mentions that, although Archer did not have a fish, he owned a pet dog. As she walks towards the captain's chair, Troi remembers that the animal was named after one of the musketeers and Riker reminds her that the name was "Porthos".
'the animal' seems not appropriate 'dogs name' or 'its name was' sounds better.
Sitting in Archer's command chair, Troi remarks that the seat is extremely comfortable. As first officer of the Enterprise-D, Riker notes that there is no seat for his position on the NX-01.
That Riker was the 1701-D first officer was already established in the teaser, so I don't think it need to be repeated here.
When she presses a switch on the science console,
Seems to me that you press a button and use or turn a switch. Pressing a switch simply does not sound right.
Reed then relates to Tucker that Archer believes there will be another Enterprise before long
I dont't think 'relates' is correctly used here, in my opinion 'tells' or 'tell' would fit better.
I think it also misses 'the were it all takes place'. In the background info it says that it all took place during the episode "The Pegasus". As far as I am concerned this should be in the article itself, teaser or first act. As already stated this 'summary' it highly detailed, maby to much. As I already said I onyl read the first part not the hole.
Comment I don't think that 'a collaborative effort between "him" and "me"' is the right choice of words for a nomination. More archivist were busy on the article, and yes "him" and "me" did the biggest part but it sounds to much that FA status is already expected and only a formality. -- Q 17:07, 20 Sep 2005 (EDT)
Oppose as well because it's "too good" if you wanna look at it that way, tho I think good is a relative term. This is like if I assigned you a book report and you handed in a rewritten version of the book with the deleted scenes included: It's not as satisfying and frankly unacceptable. Maybe you've heard of the law of diminishing returns; as you write more and more, the reader becomes less and less interested. Sorry to be harsh but as someone who didnt watch Enterprise I just want an overall idea that's longer than a sentence, not the entire episode. Tone it down to the size of Emissary and Ill support it. Ben Sisqo 01:08, 21 Sep 2005 (UTC)
Comment: And so the dillema continues. Maybe we should have an MA version of WikiSource? One part for an actual summary (Emissary Like) and then the "LCARSource" (hehe, start coinin names in case this catches on ;-)) for a word-for-word, in depth, mega-well written Defiant-class description. The point is, a page the size of Emissary could be written in a fairly short time, and wouldn't show the effort that these do to gain FA status. (Didn't Emissary get voted down a while back?) Again, the conundrum continues. - AJHalliwell 01:20, 21 Sep 2005 (UTC)
But see, not that I'm saying this is what your article is, but someone could work for hours on end and still end up with the biggest piece of garbage ever seen. The fact that someone put time and effort into it for (in my opinion) no reason says not that it deserves to be featured but that they need to reevaluate their writing style. Why are episode articles featured anyway? Not the most encyclopedia-like articles from what I can see. Ben Sisqo 21:26, 20 Sep 2005 (EDT)
Ben Sisqo, why would you leave the above comment if you didn't think it was relevant to this article? Seems to me like you're commenting on the article but afraid to state that you are! Frankly, I am insulted by the comment, "the biggest piece of garbage ever seen", and I don't think there's a place for such comments on MA.
Also, you clearly do not understand the reason why FAs exist, if your following comment is to be believed - "Why are episode articles featured anyway? Not the most encyclopedia-like articles from what I can see." Yes, a comparison can be made between Memory Alpha and an encyclopedia, but only in general. Most encyclopedias do not have FAs, if any at all, and there is no indication that the entirety of MA (including discussion and policy pages) should be interpreted as an encyclopedia. FAs represent the best work on MA, and this article is clearly one of those examples. The reluctance of those members of MA who oppose featured status for this article just goes to show how personally motivated this site has become. It's quite clear to me that any other articles I work on and nominate will quickly be insulted and thrown to the side on personal grounds. --Defiant | Talk 12:02, 21 Sep 2005 (UTC)
I explicitly said that example was to show that quantity does not equal quality, a fact you later agreed with elsewhere. I don't feel like debating this though. Ben Sisqo 23:34, 23 Sep 2005 (UTC)
Support. I do not give in to popular opinion and have read this summary before, although maybe not word for word because it's overly long. I think it warrants featured status because too much is better than too little. Makon 18:35, 24 Sep 2005 (UTC)
...So you're saying it was too long to read and you support it for that reason? That cuts right to the heart of the debate. Jaf 13:54, 25 Sep 2005 (UTC)Jaf
What? I'm just saying that I'd rather have too much details than not enough, and that just as an article shouldn't be disqualified on the basis of being too short (Trials and Tribbleations), being too long is also not automatically bad. It only needs a little trimming. Makon 04:48, 26 Sep 2005 (UTC)
Self-nomination. I have been contributing a lot of information to this article lately, as I thought it could use a lot more detail than there originally was. Using the class' MSD, episode info, ship pictures, etc. I was able to greatly expand this article to include a lot more information than it used to. I personally think it features a great amount of information and is almost to the point where no more data can be added. - Adm. Enzo Aquarius 16:08, 17 Sep 2005 (UTC)
Data not, but images definitely. --Memory 00:10, 19 Sep 2005 (UTC)
Strong Support I think this article encompasses everything about the topic. There is nothing (That I can see) that can be added. Tobyk777 18:59, 17 Sep 2005 (UTC)
Support. Apparently, quite a lot of time and work has been put in this article, and it includes, as far as I can see, everything that can be written on the Nova class starship. I would suggest, though, changing the tense to the past tense, e.a.: the Nova class was rather than is, as most starship class articles are written in that tense. As there are no rules on this, though, it's no valid reason to object, and for the rest the article's great. Ottens| SITE✍ TALK | 10:36, 18 Sep 2005 (UTC)
Comment All the different subsections seem a little unnecessary to me, given that most of them only contain 2-4 sentences, especially in the technical areas. To me, this is one that falls under the category of complete but not really an FA. Logan 5 00:50, 19 Sep 2005 (UTC)
I've reorganized the page some and rewritten it in other places. The tense should be present tense, except in cases that we are talk about something that is history oriented -- as it written from the pov that they are still in service. Anyway, No vote, but lets just say if and when I make one, its going to have a lot to do with the fact that there are very few pictures depicting the sections featured (ie, the bridge, science labs, corridors, capts ready room, any other rooms featured in "Equinox" 1 & 2) in the article, much like they are pictured in D'deridex class.
And in response to Logan, I agree, compared to D'deridex class, there is far less to this than there is to D'deridex, most of is included is just fluff. I almost wish we just had a semi-featured section that we could put these "complete but not really an FA", which might include this and Ambassador class, just for the sake of organization. --Alan del Beccio 03:21, 19 Sep 2005 (UTC)
Oppose. Presents non-canon/background information as facts, including the sidebar (Type, Length, Speed, Armament, etc.), (probably) the exact design goals (replacement, mission type, ...). All this has to be checked and eventually removed. Second, the prose jumps between present and past tense. I'd prefer all past tense (this is not official policy, though), but the article should at least use the same tense throughout. Third reason for my vote are the format issues Logan brought up (subsection/content ratio) which, I think, prevent this article from being especially well-written at the moment. -- Cid Highwind 12:58, 20 Sep 2005 (EDT) updated: Cid Highwind 10:15, 23 Sep 2005 (UTC)
Comment. I was curious as to what this 'non-canon' information was? (Apart from the sidebar you noted) A number of items I found was from the ship's official MSD and ship views (Hence where I got the escape pod count along with crew quarters). Thanks to Logan (?) who reorganized some of the more minor categories to more appropriate areas, I personally think it looks better too. - Adm. Enzo Aquarius 17:11, 21 Sep 2005 (EDT)
Actually that was me. I put it through the paper template I have been using for putting starship class pages together. And again, I still think it needs a lot more images to go with the sections that are being referred to. --Alan del Beccio 01:07, 23 Sep 2005 (UTC)
Comment re:Enzo. Apart from most (all?) of the sidebar information, we have the content of the "history" section (I doubt that was mentioned in the episode. If it was, it should at least be moved, a section consisting of just one sentence is too short). Also, at least the content of the introduction ("designed as ...", "used for ..."; do we really know that?) and probably more of the technical details. I also added another point to my original objection. -- Cid Highwind 10:15, 23 Sep 2005 (UTC)