Memory Alpha:Pages for deletion/Countries from "The Cage" map

This is a page to discuss the suggestion to delete the pages listed in the rationale.

• If you are suggesting a page for deletion, add your initial rationale to the section "Deletion rationale".
• If you want to discuss this suggestion, add comments to the section "Discussion".
• If a consensus has been reached, an administrator will explain the final decision in the section "Admin resolution".

In all cases, please make sure to read and understand the deletion policy before editing this page.

• See Memory Alpha:Pages for deletion/Countries from "The Cage" map/Unrelated Conversation for a split-off conversation unrelated to the deletion

Deletion rationale

Mongolia Algeria Sudan Argentina Democratic Republic of the Congo Saudi Arabia Indonesia Libya Chad Niger Angola Mali Information added to a number of other pages.

Point Barrow Midway Island Fairbanks Wake Island Gulf of Alaska Yukon River Aleutian Islands Bering Strait Seattle Bristol Bay Hokkaido Honshu Kyushu

Much like cities only referenced on these maps, which were deleted awhile ago, there is no relevance to Star Trek in this real world information beyond that a map of the world was used briefly at one point in a remastered episode. While that is relevant to Earth, map, and the background section on Antarctica (since the real map was changed in only that regard), it is not a good reason to reference it on/make an article for all 194 countries that will be in the real world map that was used. The resource policy states that production and reference materials "...should not be repeated verbatim in articles. The relevant information should not be referenced in every possible article, but only in the most relevant one." Common sense says that when something like a real world map is used, the "most relevant" part, if nothing was deliberately changed or pointed out, was that the subject of the map was used; in the remastered episode, that was the world as a whole, and in the original episode the hemispheres shown. The rest of the information is only coincidentally shown/used. - Archduk3 07:49, February 7, 2015 (UTC)

Discussion

• Keep: They did appear in the show, so technically they are canon. In regards to Saudi Arabia, a long time ago (several years) there was a discussion about the radio jabber Uhura hears as the warhead is descending uncontrollably in "Assignment Earth". In one of the foreign languages, someone apparently says "Libya" and "Arabia". In addition Kazakhstan and Mongolia should definitely be kept since they are large enough to have names visible on the map and are referenced in other trek shows (Outer Mongolia and Baikonur Cosmodrome). On the flip side, I do think a country should not be listed unless someone has gone to the trouble of zooming in on the map and showing the actual name, as was the case with Sudan and Korea. I vote keep and even expand if needed. -User:FleetCaptain 7 Feb 15

• Delete per Archduk. This seems no different that the situation with the cities and would be no different than saying that since the Earth has appeared in canon that any geographic feature on the Earth should get a page. 31dot (talk) 00:07, February 8, 2015 (UTC)

• Comment At potential risk to life and limb, I'm gonna chime in here a bit. I don't really have a strong feeling either way on this subject, as long as the country or city in question was labeled legibly on a map seen on-screen. I view these little country articles as being very similar to the one or two line articles on personnel that were only seen in a one line entry on an okudagram... I think you could make the same argument either way about those as well. -- Renegade54 (talk) 18:15, February 9, 2015 (UTC)

Follow-up (Country by Country)

I have to admit I've lost track about what is being said up above :-) but it doesn't seem to be about the deletion discussion. Back to topic, I've reviewed the list of countries more carefully and came up with this list based on strong and weak keeps versus those which should be deleted. I think its clear a blanket deletion is not the best idea.

STRONG KEEP

• Mongolia: Clearly visible on the Cage Map, one of the larger countries listed. Parent country for Outer Mongolia, mentioned in an episode.
• Kazakhstan: Clearly visible on the Cage Map, one of the larger countries. The Baikonur Cosmodrome is located there
• Libya: Mentioned in Arabic in Assignment Earth, specifically "Libya on alert"
• Midway Island: Heavy background information, referencing the Battle of Midway upon which a number of Starfleet vessels are named. Also links to a military awards article (Navy expeditionary medal). Due to the work on the B-ground section and that a name is visible on the Cage Map if magnified, the article should be kept.

MEDIUM KEEP

• Saudi Arabia: Fairly visible on Cage map. Line is Arabic or Farsi states "divisions moving towards Arabia" in Assignment Earth.
• Sudan: Fairly visible on the Cage Map with a readable name.
• Point Barrow: Fairly visible on the Cage Map. One of the only cities shown in Alaska, after Fairbanks. Referenced in the main Alaska article.

WEAK KEEP

• Korea: Korean service medal shown in Tomorrow is Yesterday. Graphical enhancement shows the name Korea and Seoul on the Cage map.
• Bering Strait: I think this was mentioned in Star Trek IV. If not, merge with Bering Sea.

DELETE The remainder of the countries and regions are either too small to read either under enhancement or not mentioned or referenced in any way except on the Cage Map. There are a few cities and islands which were extrapolated - those should go for sure. Also remove all capitols from country articles unless they are spoken of or visible on a map.

Thank you all. Nice to see everyone again - User:FleetCaptain (8 Feb)

I'm also of the opinion that blanket deletions generally aren't the best option, and I, of course, don't think we should delete anything that has other references, but since using visibility/readability is actually the problem according to policy (see above), I would like to know if you're interested in a different, all encompassing solution; mainly that we keep any page where we have something to say other than it was just seen on a map. - Archduk3 08:34, February 9, 2015 (UTC)

I agree that we should keep any page that will say more than "X was seen on a map". 31dot (talk) 11:22, February 9, 2015 (UTC)

First of all, I completely agree that if something has other clearly valid references they should be kept. So assuming FC's info is correct (I'm a bit worried that they don't seem to know if S.A. was mentioned in Arabic of Farsi though. What's the source for that assertion anyway?) that means S.A. and Lybia should be kept no matter what is decided in this particular discussion. On the other hand, I don't see how for example the existence of a Korean service medal should have any influence on the decision to keep Korea or not. The irrelevance of completely indirect references like that has been agreed on in numerous deletion discussions.

Now that that's out of the way: Archduk3's alternative proposal on how to deal with this seems like a fairly dramatic policy change. Plus, what counts as nothing else to say exactly? You can always assign those countries to at least a continent and perhaps say they border some ocean too. And it's common practice to once such an article is establish build the web by talking about all mentioned cities in a country, or the country a city is in, etc, even if those connections were not pointed out in canon.

I think we should stick to the conclusions on the previous cage map deletion discussion, that only pages who's label can be identified as what they say on the map as appeared are ok, but that those deserve a Keep. (yes I know that discussion could have been clearer in its conclusion, but it's important to note that without Jörgs proposal there would not have been enough of a consensus for actually deleting the pages back then). I feel that's an elegant solution because it both keeps with the basic idea that everything seen on screen is relevant (no need for yet another special exception one needs to be aware of), but also keeps people from creating articles for every geographical feature larger then a pixel seen on a mate painting of Earth from orbit. Much like how the nazi map of the US was intuitively handled, a feature would have to have a recognizably pointed out label to be identified as an article topic in itself. -- Capricorn (talk) 23:17, February 9, 2015 (UTC)

The line about Saudi Arabia is very hard to understand and actually only says "Arabia" (which is a region) and not "Saudi Arabia" (the country). The quote can be heard when the warhead is descending uncontrollably in Assignment Earth and Uhuru reports all countries on major military alert. I drew up some notes based on my (extremely limited) knowledge of Arabic and also a translation from a native speaker of both Arabic and Farsi. There was also a translation on a Star Trek newsgroup from a veeeery long time ago (late 1990s - one of those alt dot groups from that era) but that's the only place I've seen anything official about what was being said in the quote. -User:FleetCaptain (10 Feb)