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I have my own Klingon Translation on my site, and it appears to conflict with this page, I attribute Tok as "yes". The last line in the first Klingon scene says "Tok, Jaq Wi'" which translates as "Yes, my lord" the only time Yes is used but "Jaq Wi'" is suppose to be "My Lord" from my understanding of the language. Also the page I include also translates several Klingon numbers, I even site it's source should this be added to MA? (removed becuase of spam filter) --TOSrules 19:15, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The Klingon you give is transcribed from the shows, whereas the information on the page is largely taken from Marc Okrand's The Klingon Dictionary, which is the only truly in-depth systematic treatment we have of any Klingon language. The word you cite for "my lord" is probably a poorly pronounced joHwI' "my lord". thefamouseccles 23:29, 19 Aug 2005 (UTC)
NO, that line is from Star Trek III the movie that gave birth to the Klingon Language --TOSrules 23:16, 5 Sep 2005 (UTC)

Before adding "HISlaH, HIja'" back you should have stated your source for it here. --TOSrules 00:11, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

pna-inaccurate
There is a lot of information here that I am rather certain did not come from any episodes, and seem not to be cited, especially the words used and the phonetics. Additionally, we have paged like BaH that contain words separate of this page. Should it not be redirected to this page, rather than scattered randomly, as well as listed in a table here? --Alan del Beccio 23:57, 26 Jul 2005 (UTC)

On this sound file I have designated the lines as, Lines A18 and line A19 from Star Trek 3 (removed becuase of spam filter) the file contains two lines, the caption states the first one "Yeh Jet" is "feed him" and the second one, "Toq, Jah we" is "Yes, my lord".

This page concretes on Okuda's use of Klingon Phonics, my translations on the other hand uses English phonics because the reader is from Earth usually speaking English so I see no point in using Klingon phonics. I believe this to be the source of confusion here. but I think English phonics should be taken into account on the Memory Alpha site since it is an English website. I have every line of Klingon from TOS movies for download if needed. --TOSrules 23:23, 18 Aug 2005 (UTC)

However, there are several different interpretations to English phonetics, not only within the US but outside as well. At least the Klingon ones should be nonvariant across accents. --Nineworlds 00:12, 22 Aug 2005 (UTC)

it should still give an English account how to pronounce the words. Or else they have to look at the phonetic conversion and back down at the word to figure it out. As a translation page it is rather useless. --TOSrules 00:16, 22 Aug 2005 (UTC)

The language

All of the information on the language on this page comes from The Kllingon Dictionary [1].

The Klingon dictionary was written by the same guy; Marc Okrand, who wrote all the klingon dialogue for the films Star Trek III: The Search for Spock, Star Trek V: The Final Frontier and Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, Based on the dialogue from Star Trek: The Motion Picture, originally written by James Doohan.

As the Klingon language, and indeed dictionary were commissioned by Paramount and the language is owned and copyrighted by Paramount, the language is canon, thus the information on the page is canon.

Finally TOSrules, while your webpage is quite interesting (indeed it's quite nice), it is technically inaccurate in several key areas, drawing from either inaccuarate or outirght noncanon sources.

The vocab issue probably arises from a misconseption and mishearing of the dialogue from the films. Although this is interesting in istelf as it demostrates the misunderstandings that lead to mispronunciation of foreign words due to one language lacking the phonemes of another.

I can find no evidence for the existance of the word tok, indeed all I found was the phrase luq joHwI - "yes I will/OK, my lord!" A phrase that comes from Star Trek III.

The baH issue, I agree it should be mentioned on this page, and that BaH, shoud redirect to this page.

I believe my information to be correct, accurate and most importnatly canon.

Runic code

The word Yes appears as the caption for that phrase you bring up. It sounded like "tok" to me. As for the finer points of translation, I do not personally understand them, I just try my best to translate what i can. I use English phonics, because that is the best way for someone else to learn the word. The Klingon Translation is a bit lacking, but that is because of Okada's book. Someday, I wish to compare his translations with mine, as a guide to better my Vulcan Translations. --TOSrules 06:27, 9 Sep 2005 (UTC)
PS I am glad you liked my site


"Klingon dictionary" is not a valid resource

I agree with some of the comments made above. The "Klingon dictionary" is not a valid resource as defined by our canon policy, and the information based solely on that book has to be removed from the article. Someone with a better knowledge of that topic might want to do this, but if no one cares I'll give it a try later... -- Cid Highwind 15:52, 5 Sep 2005 (UTC)

I'd just like to add a sub-comment -- some of the spellings from the Klingon dictionary may come to valid use for words used in the actual episodes or movies, or at least valid redirects to link to terms used in the episodes or movies (but only for Klingon language material used in episodes or movies) -- this could aid in searching -- however, i've done some reading on KLI (Klingon Language Institute)'s website -- they and Marc Okrand frowns on his publication being reproduced online without permission. -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk 16:37, 5 Sep 2005 (UTC)
To sub-comment your sub-comment, what about all the articles that are based on Klingonese words? Shouldn't a number of these be redirected and referenced on this page. I think the same goes for the Vulcan language, such as many of the words used in "Amok Time". I realize that some are not necessarily translatable or are, in themselves, usable terminology, but what about, BaH or Kroykah? --Alan del Beccio 17:10, 5 Sep 2005 (UTC)
Well, some mottos and phrases, and proper nouns will maintain separate pages -- its those i refer to -- simple grammar and short phrases should be handled as you suggest -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk 17:15, 5 Sep 2005 (UTC)

Well I have nothing against using the Klingon Dictionary, since it is written by the guy who made the language work, but it should only be used in connection with words heard on screen, and an English pronunciation should be provided. Also I plan on making a Language Databanks website eventually, I'll be adding links to there from when it is done, it will contain every phrase heard, and a sound file of that phrase. Our page should only include pronunciations heard on screen. --TOSrules 23:15, 5 Sep 2005 (UTC)

Klingonese to Klingon language

Personally, I find the name "Klingonese" to be fairly stupid sounding. As an improvement, I think that this should be moved to Klingon language. That sounds more official and is still the same thing. Comments? -Platypus Man | Talk 01:09, 10 Sep 2005 (UTC)

  • The fact that you don't like the name doesn't change the fact that it's the name used on Star Trek. I find having "Klingon language" in bold equally stupid sounding, considering that's... not the name of it. 193.251.169.170 05:04, 16 Sep 2005 (UTC)
  • Klingonese isn't on quite the same level as Dominionese in that it was referenced as "Klingonese" by a 'Klingon in "The Trouble with Tribbles":
Korax: Of course I'd say that Captain Kirk deserves his ship. We like the Enterprise; we--we really do. That sagging, old rust bucket is designed like a garbage scow. Half the quadrant knows it. That's why they're learning to speak Klingonese.
So the Klingons themselves called it Klingonese or at least that is the way it is translated by the universal translator. I don't know if it was ever referenced as "Klingonese" again, but the point still stands that it is a perfectly canonical name, and the only name given to the Klingon language (was tlhIngan Hol ever stated onscreen?).--Tim Thomason 05:36, 16 Sep 2005 (UTC)
  • The term Klingonese was also used in "Looking for Par'Mach in all the Wrong Places":
Quark: Having to learn all of this Klingonese is not helping my performance.

And tlhIngan Hol most likely does not come from any on screen source. In fact, I think all such references need to be removed from the article and limit it to only canon sources and only use the Klingon dictionary as a last resort. --Alan del Beccio 05:50, 16 Sep 2005 (UTC)

  • OK then, keep it. When I said this, I was unaware that anyone had ever said it onscreen, making the name non-canon. However, you have set me straight. I still think it sounds stupid, but the name can stay as Klingonese, although I'd still prefer the article moved to Klingon language. Even if Klingonese is valid, it is still not as official sounding as Klingon language. -Platypus Man | Talk 11:45, 16 Sep 2005 (UTC) (Edited 04:49, 22 Dec 2005 (UTC))
I would like to reopen this discussion, becuase I don't think that it has been recieving the proper attention. There were only two times the Klingon Language has been referred to as "Klingonese", and a much larger number of times it has been referred to simply as "Klingon". I can remember Worf saying with surprise "You speak Klingon." on several occasions, and many others have done so too during the course of the different series. Especially in those situations, when the language itself was the topic at hand, it has been referred to as "Klingon" and not "Klingonese". So I suggest that Klingonese be moved to Klingon Language or Klingon (language). I would welcome a discussion on the topic to prove either point. – Mütze 16:58, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Seeing as one redirects to the other anyways, does it really matter? I don't think so...
I prefer Klingonese because it is a simpler link to write. -- Captain M.K.B. 16:39, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
If the redirects stay intact, the Klingonese-link will be a redirect, and therefor still avaliable. As a geek among geeks (Do I anger people by saying that out loud on the Star Trek Wiki?) I think the *right* title should be the title used here, and for the above stated arguments, I think that Klingon Language and Klingon (language) capture the apparent intended meaning of the Trek Writers better thatn Klingonese. Just my two cents, and I am okay with every single person on this planet who doesn't care either way. Having found a spontaneous interest in the subject however, I do care. — Mütze 16:58, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Plat. Klingoneese sounds way to earth-like and is sterotypical for one who is uneducated about the Star Trek universe. I only know a few insults in Klingon, but for me, and those who care about the Klingons, it will always be, the Klingon Language, or Klingon. Your mothers all have smooth foreheads.--CaptainCaca 22:16, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Klingonese Policy Issue

There has been a bit of a scuff here on what our policy should be concerning this page. I think it is time for us to bring together various opinions. I think this problem centers around the Klingon-English Dictionary. What is it's place on MA, the reason it is given weight is because it was used to make the continuity of the language in the movies, and used in any other instances for speaking Klingon.

So what is it's place here, MA has to purely relay on onscreen evidence. Books don't count, but this case the book is the common point of ref for the language. So here is what I propose, this article needs to be changed to relay on only Onscreen evidence, the Klingon Dictionary should be used only as a reference for what is heard on screen.

Here is what I see should happen here, Gvsualan is right, "known as tlhIngan Hol in its native translation" should be removed as that was never said on screen. I have no idea about the next paragraph because it uses Enterprise, I have seen very few episodes of that. Regarding "Sounds" except for the first sentence this is all non cannon. "Basic Phrases" is better because it relays on words, but we have to get rid of the words never heard on screen, if any. Now I wonder, should we remove phases that are derived? Should we only use phrases spoken in movies or episodes?

I believe we should split the chart into 4 cells instead of 2, First cell should be "English", the second "Klingonese (Klingon Phonics) this would be taken from the dictionary, then 'Klingon (English Phonics), and number 4 would be "Source" which would say where the word or phrase comes from. This is how I feel about the article, sorry for writing a book on the subject. --TOSrules 07:38, 16 Sep 2005 (UTC)

  • I created a temporary page that contains only canon info. It needs to be expanded. I used three cells instead of two, with the Klingon word, English word, and Source. If you want to include Klingon Phonics and English Phonics go ahead, I just don't know how much canon info there is. I didn't include Klingon proper names (such as people, ships, planets, or stars), because they are too numerouse (I made a list of all I could find and have found over 230). Some names that have been used twice or more (off the top of my head) include:
Amar
Duras
Fek'lhr
Gorkon
K'Kath
K't'inga
Kahless
Kang
Klag
Klothos
Koloth
Korok
Krell
Miral
Negh'Var
Pagh
Qo'noS
Qu'Vat
Somraw
Toral
Vagh
Worf
I don't know if anyone wants to use that or not.--Tim Thomason 22:44, 17 Sep 2005 (UTC)

Klingon canon

I've had a look at this talk article, and I concede, the informtion on the page isn't canon in the strictest sense. As such the page should be modified accordingly.

I would say though it's worth mentioning that for a non-canon book, it has repeatedly been used by the program producers and writers in creating new dialogue, some of which follows the grammar perfectly, so a reference to the reference has to be in order, probably under the subheading Background.

Tim, I've had a look at your temporary page Klingonese/temp, and the main page should probably be modified to reflect that. The page itself is quite good. I do feel however, that some dialogues from the films...

...should be added.

The only problem with this is what spelling to use? The spelling used in the klingon dictionary or a phonetic spelling based on what was heard, or even official transcripts from the scripts of said films if available???

And as far as the names are concerned, there's already a list of Klingon "people" names in the list of Klingons page. In fact, there's also a list of Klingon starships with their names as well. Runic code

Canonicity suggestion

Why not do it like Ferengi language, where the stuff is listed by episode, so that way if something's not canon, some fan who has every script memorized can go, "Nope, that's wrong!" Weyoun 03:57, 26 Oct 2005 (UTC)


I don't understand how the Klingon dictionary can't be canon. It is;

  • Written by Marc Okrand, the inventor of the language.
  • The basis for dialog in many scripts, a resource fo the writers.
  • Fairly consistant with filmed movies and episodes.

Any deviation in filmed dialog is typically attributed to the character speaking another dialect of Klingon, as that was how the language was structured to accomodate. And is often added to canon, without subtracting contradictary information.--Mike Nobody 04:21, 26 Oct 2005 (UTC)

Canon is only something brought up on screen. Okrand can be used to make sure you do it right, but for the sake of canon only words and phrases used on screen should be part of the Klingonese page. --TOSrules 06:53, 26 Oct 2005 (UTC)
  • Canon is only something brought up on screen.

Oh, yeah, tell that to some of these guys. Interpretation of what is or isn't canon seems to be loosely arbitrary on M/A.--Mike Nobody 07:02, 26 Oct 2005 (UTC)


I agree with you about it being canon, I was only trying to figure out what works for MA. But how much of the dictionary are you planning to transcribe? I don't think we should put the entire book on here. Weyoun 04:24, 26 Oct 2005 (UTC)
  • Although the Ferengi section includes the episode sources, Ferengi dialog is hardly commonly used. The Klingonese page is structured very well, I thought. Maybe another column could be added, citing the source. as well as alphebetizing the Klingon phrases.--Mike Nobody 05:00, 26 Oct 2005 (UTC)

Removed "Basic phrases"

This was copied from The Klingon Dictionary -- none should be added back into the article without being cited to a canon episode. -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk 07:24, 26 Oct 2005 (UTC)


Below is a short of of some usefull basic phrases in the tlhIngan Hol dialect, the most commonly heard dialect used in the empire.
English (Human Hol, DIvI' Hol) Klingonese (tlhingan Hol)
yes HISlaH, HIja', toq
no ghobe'
No problem. qay'be'
Success! (shout) Qapla'
What do you want? (greeting) nuqneH
I understand. jIyaj
I do not understand. jIyajbe'
Do you speak Klingon? tlhIngan Hol Dajatlh'a'
I cannot speak Klingon. tlhIngan Hol vIjatlhaHbe'
Where is a good restaurant? nuqDaq 'oH Qe' QaQ'e'
Beam me aboard! HIjol
Come here! HIghoS
"Bad match" Mok'tah
Pay now! DaH yIDIl
I am a ... ... jIH
Klingon, Romulan, Human, Cardassian, Vulcan. tlhingan, romuluSngan, tera'ngan/Human, qarDaSngan, vulqa'ngan.
I want to sleep. jIQong vIneH
Fire the torpedoes! cha yIbaH qara'DI'
Fire (the weapon)!!! baH
Is this seat taken? quSDaQ ba'lua'
Where is the bathroom? nuqDaq 'oH puchpae'
I have a headache. jIwuQ
Hurry up! tugh
You lie. bInep
I did not do it. vIta'pu'be'
I did it! vIta'pu'

what about petaQ? It is a Klingon word used quite often in Star Trek, and yet I could find only one fleeting mention of it in all of memory alpha. --68.198.246.166 03:01, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

petaQ will probably end up like Self-Sealing Stem Bolts, we'll never know the details (and is probably intentionally left that way, sort of how we never see Mourn speaking, but we often hear about it). Zirka 18:05, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Actually it is petaH,with the upper uvular fricative,but lacking the aspirative component of the "Q",and it has been seen by some to be a Klingon form of "monkeyboy" pithecine Wejvagh 08:08, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Reversion

I rolled back the recent editing of all the words to their phonetic tlhIngan Hol spellings. That's nice for the background section that goes into detail on Okrand's stuff, but we should use the script/television spellings for the canon part of the article, in my opinion.--Tim Thomason 02:27, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Klingonii

I don't think "Klingonii" is correct. Most of the online pages link to "Klingonese," it's referred to as "Klingonese" in Looking for par'Mach in All the Wrong Places, and I can find only one online script that refers to "Klingoni," but it's a Czech page translated. I think this should be moved as soon as possible, as there are a whole bunch of double redirects right now.--Tim Thomason 05:38, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I have moved it back for the time being, as major moves like this one need to be discussed first. As you said, the move creates a ton of double redirects, so not only does this need to be discussed, but those redirects need to be changed before this page is moved. --From Andoria with Love 06:00, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
The Czech site is the same one I use, I'm pretty sure. It's an accurate transcript, as I use that site to double check dialogue from my DVDs. Either way, "Klingonii" is CLEARLY stated on screen in the scene in question, and therefore is the proper canon title of the page.Capt Christopher Donovan 07:04, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Now that everything has been moved back and no reference to "Klingonii" can be found on the page, do I have to guess which episode you are all talking about? Come on, give me a little hint, I don't feel like looking through page histories for that. -- Cid Highwind 10:27, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
As best I can guess, Trouble with Tribbles. That's from the history on the recent changes page. I think. -- Sulfur 10:47, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Korax used the term in "The Trouble with Tribbles" when he was taunting Scotty: "That's why half the quadrant is learning to speak Klingonii!" (I've long since lost my copy of Gerrold's book, but perhaps someone with access to a copy could consult the script contained in it.) --GNDN 10:54, 4 December 2006 (UTC) I've seen a version of the book, and the word is "Klingonese".[2] --GNDN 23:50, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Ah, OK. I now found it in the transcript. Some points:

  1. If that was mentioned on-screen, it should of course link to some page talking about the Klingon language. It doesn't have to be the title, though - if "Klingonese" was also used to refer to that, one has to be a redirect to the other, anyway.
  2. The transcript uses "Klingoni", not "Klingonii".
  3. The transcript is... a transcript. Some people writing down what they hear. Transcripts (other than scripts) shouldn't be used to determine accurate spelling.
  4. So... Use Klingonese as the article title, and use the other title for a redirect to that.

-- Cid Highwind 11:04, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Since "Klingoni" (two i-s is a typo on my part, sorry) is the FIRST mention of the name of the Klingon langage (and yes, the transcript is only a typing of what is SAID, and I've listened to that line multiple times to cooborate it), then IMO it is the canon name for the Klingon language, and deserves "pride of place" over later revisions or "shortcuttings". "Klingonese" is a fandom word, and isn't even used in episodes or movies, who simply tend to use "Klingon". ("You've never experienced Shakespeare until you've read him in the original Klingon." "Damage control, that's easy...reading Kligon, that's hard..." etc)Capt Christopher Donovan 20:24, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
As Tim pointed out, however, "Looking for par'Mach in All the Wrong Places" (both the script and dialogue) refers to it as "Klingonese". --From Andoria with Love 20:30, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
I too would prefer an actual spelling of this over a "what it sounds like" or "transcrpit". Donovan, you said you had the DVD, right? Turn on Closed Captioning, see how it is spelled. I'm still not sure this should be moved just yet (although I am leaning towards that), but at the very least TTWT reference deserves a redirect, if not the article name. --OuroborosCobra talk Klingon Empire logo 20:34, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
CC isn't necessarily an authoritative source, either. Sometimes the captions are taken from scripts, and other times they're transcripts of the spoken dialogue themselves, no different from any other transcript and subject to the same errors as any other. -- Renegade54 21:29, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
I just checked Google. About 10,000+ results for "Klingonese", 66 for "Klingoni" and 9 for "Klingonii". If both terms were definitely used on-screen, we should perhaps go with the one that is used more often, and make the other one a redirect. -- Cid Highwind 21:45, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

In the final draft of the script for "The Trouble with Tribbles", Korax specifically said "Klingonese". Klingoni(i) is clearly someone's misinterpretation of Korax's half-drunken pronunciation of the word. --Alan del Beccio 07:18, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree, Gvsualan, but I was reluctant to say so earlier, as I did not have a script before me (although your assertion statement confirms my recollection). That said, Michael Pataki's reading of the line --at least as recorded on the released versions of TTWT-- sounds like "Klingoni", so I am in favor of, at least, a redirect from Klingoni on that basis. --GNDN 08:56, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
If "KlingonESE" is from the actual script (which I do not have access to), then I will accept it as authoritative. But it sure as heck SOUNDS like the spoken word is "KlingonI"...anyways, sorry for the mini-sh*t storm...Capt Christopher Donovan 10:26, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

"Some fans assert that Michael Pataki actually said "Klingoni" in "The Trouble with Tribbles," but this conflicts with the script and the Star Trek Encyclopedia." Some fans assert that Kirk was referring to a starship Discovery in "The Squire of Gothos", but that doesn't mean we are keeping a redirect around for it, or making special circumstance for it just to keep the link valid on this site... --Alan del Beccio 00:43, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Whatever, then. The redirect wasn't really my idea, but apparently GNDN and Capt Christopher Donovan (and maybe that Czech transcript guy) hear the word "Klingonii" in the episode (I heard "KlingonEEse" the two times I listened), so it may be common. I support deletion of a redirect (in other words, I oppose the redirect) from Klingoni(i), although I think the info on the assertion of Klingoni helps make up for any more "mishearing" of Pataki's long E.--Tim Thomason 01:03, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
I heard what I heard, but even so, it would not be the first time an actor botched idiosyncraticaly read an "alien" word (Bendii Syndrome, Mount Seleya and Kolinahr come to mind); my real --but unstated-- reason for supporting the redirect was the number of Google hits referenced above. That said, I am neutral on this issue as Klingoni (or Kligonese, if you prefer), is not my forte. --GNDN 04:12, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Does the Klingon Dictionary include the special alphabet?

If so, I think a section (or maybe even a seperate article) should be added for the alphabet. Will (Talk - contribs) 06:20, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

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