Alternate timeline[]
Removed the following:
In an alternate timeline, Nazi forces occupied New York City and the streets were patrolled by SS security squads. It is unknown if the NYPD ceased to exist in this reality or alternatively became an auxiliary police unit, subordinate to German designs. (ENT: "Storm Front")
as speculative- unless the NYPD was mentioned/seen in that episode, we shouldn't talk about what wasn't said.--31dot 15:35, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
- I rewrote it to simply say that the NYPD wasnt seen and that the SS was patroling the streets. The stuff about what became of the NYPD remains removed as speculative. -FC 17:20, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
- The first comment above is pretty concise on why that entire reference should be removed: 'unless the NYPD was mentioned/seen in that episode, we shouldn't talk about what wasn't said.' --Alan 17:27, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
- One could argue that since this is the only episode featuring the New York City where we don't see the NYPD, then a brief mention of this isnt harmful and in fact is helpful as well. I feel its much the same as pointing out in episode articles which actors didnt appear (i.e. "LeVar Burton does not appear in this episode"). Its just pointing out something unusual which is what background notes are all about. -FC 18:22, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
It's not a matter of harm- it's a matter of consistency. If we discuss this item which wasn't mentioned, then how do we say no to the next one? I don't see what help this provides- it only mentions what wasn't said. Where would it end? --31dot 18:25, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
- Like I said, the fact that out of 5+ episodes featuring New York City this is the only time we don't see the NYPD, that is significant enough for a background note. And I have found several other articles where things not appearing are mentioned in background notes. But, I can see both sides of the viewpoint, I'll agree. -FC 18:30, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
- Also, as a compromise we could list appearances in a separate section and have a simple note there that says the NYPD doesn't appear in "Storm Front". Maybe that would be better. -FC 18:31, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
- No. No. There is absolutely no reason for NYPD to get an appearance or mention in every appearance of of NY City, so there is no reason for even this compromise. This isn't comparable to the performer non-appearances, since they are actually credited as appearing in those episodes while still not actually being in them. NYPD isn't credited as being in Storm Front. There isn't a reason to mention it. What would be next, mentioning that the San Francisco Police Department didn't appear in "Home"? --OuroborosCobra talk 18:43, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
- This is certainly not what they had in mind when they said "make omissions explicit." --Alan
- "Home" is set during a period of time when it is not established if the SFPD even still exists. However, in "Storm Front", we see SS soldiers on the street patrolling and enforcing curfew during a time period when NYPD should have existed but obviously didn't because of the time change. The sarcasm and resistance to this one sentence is truly mind boggling. Adding this single line isn't going to cause Memory Alpha to crash or cause others to flood our website with useless information. It's a single sentence and one of the first things I thought of when I watched Storm Front was "I wonder what happened to the regular police force after the SS took over?" I wondered this because of the German habit for using local police forces to enforce their will in occupied territories, up to and including the French (Vichy) and English (on the Channel Islands). The episode didn't go into this (unfortunately) but a single line simply saying that in this particular episode the SS appears to have taken took over law enforcement in New York City isn't in any way harmful or detracting to this article or to this site. That's my final word on this, if others still want to remove it, I'm not going to start an edit war. Everyone have a wonderful weekend on 8/8/8! -FC 19:57, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
In terms of "Home", exactly. There is nothing in the episode which says one way or the other, so it's not mentioned. Why is the NYPD different?--31dot 20:24, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
- I explained above exactly what makes this different. It is an unusual situation contrary to the norm which is being covered by a single background note in a single sentence. I rewrote it again to now simply state that in this particular episode the normal functions of the NYPD were replaced by the SS. -FC 20:59, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
- FleetCaptain, in response to your "reason" for it being different, when was it stated that the SFPD did not exist in the 22nd century? I know of no such canon reference. As for the claim that one little note won't open the floodgates for others, and therefore wondering why we fight it so much, remember this: the reason why those floodgates aren't open is because we fight tooth and nail on every instance, and don't just say "well, I'll let this one go through, even though it is wrong and doesn't belong". --OuroborosCobra talk 21:07, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
- I just said it was not established (it might very well have existed). BTW, I just modified my troublesome sentence by moving it up as an alternate timeline note which is the standard method these items are normally displayed on this site. I hope this ends the resistance to this. The way it is written now does not violate any existing format and standing policy of Memory Alpha nor should it invite others to add bad information to our site. -FC 21:11, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
- I'm not sure how you can call that a compromise when it shouldn't be there at all, looks to me to be more like forcing your hand on something that 75% of the contributors to this discussion disagree with. Which makes me wonder why all this always reverts to sleight of hand, and we move week to week with some never ending 'loophole agenda' of 'trivial pursuits' that seem to always be at work. "Not mentioned/see in said episode" = "don't mention it in said article." (Seems we've had this discussion before.) If there is no legitimate reason to link NYPD to the "references" section on one of the "Storm Front" pages, then we shouldn't expect the opposite, finding "Storm Front" referenced on the NYPD article linking back to an episode that can't even cite itself to it. And regardless of who or what did or didnt appear in other episodes, did anyone ever stop to think that with the Nazi's having taken over NYC, why would the NYPD bother helping the Nazi's by patrolling the same streets together during a war. --Alan 21:21, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
- It's getting late (at least where I am). I've explained my point of view. I have no idea what you are talking about with "moving week to week with a ending loophole agenda of trivial pursuits". That sounds very much like a childish personal comment which has no place at all this site. In any event, the disputed sentence has been removed. -FC 21:32, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Disputed sentence[]
Sentence removed due to heavy opposition against mentioning SS roles in an alternate timeline. Previous section reads:
- The New York City Police Department was a law enforcement agency on Earth that existed during the 20th century. The function of the organization was to patrol and maintain order in New York City.
- In an alternate timeline, Nazi forces occupied New York City and the streets were patrolled by SS security squads instead of the NYPD. (ENT: "Storm Front")
Obviously need more input before it is placed back in the article. -FC 21:32, 8 August 2008 (UTC)