Talk: Starfleet/archive

Content

I think that a lot of the original text concerning Starfleet was confusing the Earth Starfleet's purpose and values with those of the Federation Starfleet. In Enterprise, it seems that Archer was never picked for his diplomatic skills at all -- witness his brief meeting with Ambassador Soval in the sickbay in "Broken Bow," for example. It seems to me that Earth's Starfleet is simply busy developing its technologies at this time, and providing some limited defense functions against low-level threats to whatever close-by colonies they've established.

As for diplomacy and other high-sounding morals, I think that those are what Captain Archer is developing as he goes along. Certainly, his point of view will have some important effects when he gets back and can start guiding the next generations of explorers, but for now, Earth's Starfleet seems to be much more practical. -- MinutiaeMan 08:17, 23 Dec 2003 (PST)

Earth Starfleet was chartered in Jonathan Archer's lifetime as revealed in the ENT episode "Horizon". Jean Prouvaire 07:11, 4 Apr 2005 (EDT)

Add Admiral Douglas from TATV – The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nx09 (talk • contribs).

Reverted edit

I just reverted the last edit by Mike Nobody, which basically consisted of random speculation, and, for some bizarre reason, the pasting of the content of Starfleet into the article. I'm not entirely sure what his purpose was in doing so, but it certainly didn't strike me as being particularly improving in its content. -- Michael Warren | Talk 13:47, 4 Oct 2005 (UTC)

I was attempting to combine Starfleet into one category, with "before" and "after" Federation areas. I floated the idea on the talk page some time ago with no response. Instead of page hopping between Earth and Federation Starfleet, I wanted to unify it into a cohesive timeline of sorts. So, anyone who typed "Starfleet" would have a nice clear point to explore the subject.--Mike Nobody 13:59, 4 Oct 2005 (UTC)

Why Earth's Starfleet and Starfleet are not the same, Starfleet is Earth, Vulcan, Andorian, et.al after the Federation is chartered Earth's Starfleet is "decomitioned" and most if not all of it's ships are retired, otherwise Enterprise NX-01 should have been refitted with a Warp 7 engine and returned to active duty, not placed storage. the ship was only 10 years old in TATV, Kirk's ship (the 1st one) lasted for 40 years. – The preceding unsigned comment was added by 192.35.35.34.

Wasn't it stated that the NX could not go faster then 5 due to the design? Something in E2 was said to that I think. Terran Officer 22:58, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

It's been stated through the series that the engine was only built for speeds up to warp 5, and in episodes where it reached that speed, it caused tremendous strain on the ship's hull. I think the highest the ship ever traveled was 5.2 (in either "The Augments" or "Affliction"/"Divergence", I forget which – likely the latter). In "E²", it was revealed that the ship could be travel at warp 6.9, but that was only after the plasma injectors were upgrade with advanced technology developed on the alternate Enterprise over a period of 118 years. However, the plasma injectors on the alternate Enterprise were too old to handle the strain of such a high warp factor. --From Andoria with Love 06:46, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Ad Astra Per Aspera

Translation please. --AC84 01:38, 22 March 2006 (PST)

"To the stars through difficulty" This starfleet motto originated from a plaque on the launchpad of the Apollo 1 spacecraft. During launch the craft was destroyed by fire, tragically killing the crew. – The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.67.90.125.

Why separate from Starfleet?

I'm not sure I entirely understand why this article is separate from the one on the Federation Starfleet. The two Starfleets are indivisible, as one directly begat the other. That's sort of the whole narrative point of Enterprise.

It seems vaguely similar to saying there are two United States — one pre-Constitution and one post-Constitution. Was someone born in the Articles of Confederation years less a United States citizen than someone born after the Consitution was ratified? Would the NX-01 crew not have retained their rank in the Federation Starfleet? Clearly, the implication of the finale of Enterprise is that Riker and Troi viewed the NX-01 as the "first" Enterprise in the Federation Starfleet family of Enterprises, so why are we laboring to maintain a separation?

If one is trying to write with precision, and one is speaking of "the first _______" in Starfleet history, one currently has to link to two separate articles. This just seems awfully cumbersome, and maybe even anti-canonical. CzechOut ☎ | ✍ 13:33, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Because Earth Starfleet is Earth Starfleet. The Federation Starfleet is not just a continuation of Earth Starfleet, but either an amalgamation of the founding member's forces or a completely new creation. There are also many differences, such as ranks, protocols, organisation etc. - Mada101 19:10, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

See Forum:Two Starfleets?! Are there any proofs?--Bravomike 07:43, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, first off, I'd point out that there IS a school of thought that says that, legally-speaking, the United States of America that existed under the Articles of Confederation is not the state that exists today; that, rather, under the Articles, the United States was an alliance of independent states that lacked what we would today refer to as statehood under international law, much like the Commonwealth of Independent States or the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. Citizenship then being granted to all of those who were citizens of the US states upon ratification of the Constitution and establishment of the new United States.

Secondly, the separation between the United Earth Starfleet -- this article really ought to be called "United Earth Starfleet" rather than "Earth Starfleet," though, because Earth is a planet, whereas United Earth was the state that the Starfleet of ENT served -- is self-evident. Services like this are state organizations -- they exist to serve the state, and when a new state is created, then so too is the new service. Thus, the modern-day Royal Navy of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is a distinct organization from the Royal Scots Navy of the Kingdom of Scotland that preceeded it, because the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is a distinct state from the Kingdom of Scotland.

The United Earth Starfleet served United Earth. The Federation Starfleet serves the United Federation of Planets. They are self-evidently different organizations on that basis alone. -- Sci 13:28 10 FEB 2008 UTC

Naming

I am curious, while it is often called "Starfleet", if the actual name of the organization is officially "Earth Starfleet" why is the page not named so? That term currently redirects here, and it's not anything I ever really paid attention to until suddenly a few moments ago. Is this to allow for the fact of how often it's referred to as "Starfleet"? --Terran Officer 21:32, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

When was it "officially" referred to as "Earth Starfleet"? --Alan del Beccio 22:01, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I guess I never really heard it called Earth Starfleet, maybe it was here and there, and I don't recall, I've just notice the redirect link and even this article naming it as "Earth Starfleet" --Terran Officer 02:40, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

This organization has never been referred to as "Earth Starfleet" or "United Earth Starfleet" or anything really other than simply "Starfleet." What's interesting, is that its "successor" Starfleet has been referred to as the "Federation Starfleet" a multitude of times (TNG: "The Most Toys", "The Best of Both Worlds"; DS9: "Tribunal"; VOY: "Dark Frontier").

The term "Earth Starfleet" seems to be a fan-created term used to disambiguate the two organizations (which the "Federation Starfleet" term shows they are in fact separate). The page is properly placed here with a "(Earth)" or maybe "(United Earth)" disambig title as opposed to anywhere else.--Tim Thomason 22:11, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Two Starfleets? (merge suggestion)

This question has been raised in the MA/de (German talk) and seems to be very important, but not easy to answer: Are there [canonical] positive proofs that Starfleet (Earth) and Starfleet (Federation) are two organisations, and not identical?

We don't ask for theories or explanations about how Starfleet evolved, we need hard facts, positive proofs, taken from canon. Points like different uniforms and ranks or different constitution and structure are no proofs, too, because they can be changed without constituting a new organisation.

First idea was to look for insignias or emblems that put together "Starfleet" and "Federation", the only one we found (here at MA) is the logo of Starfleet Command. But there are some persons that don't accept this as an proof, because it ist also possible, that Federation took command of old Earth Starfleet after beeing founded in 2161 without creating a new organisation. Unfortunatly, the term "Earthship" used through TOS (e.g. here) seems to corroborate this theory.

Finding some lines in dialogue that answers this question would be a better proof. Can anyone think of some? Maybe we could find out when Federation Starfleet was chartered.--Bravomike 19:10, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

This discussion just started over here yesterday. Not sure if we want to continue this discussion here or there, but regarding the logo, during Enterprise it would seem that like the Federation/Starfleet relationship, it would see that Earth Starfleet and UESPA shared a similar relationship. --Alan del Beccio 00:41, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

So does that mean that the logo is definitely no proof?--Bravomike 07:46, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

IIRC, 24th century Starfleet logos have stated that the organization was founded in 2161, same year the United Federation of Planets was formed. Since Starfleet was obviously around prior to 2161, it stands to reason that a variation of Starfleet was formed in 2161. That is, of course, assuming I'm correct about the logo. :P --From Andoria with Love 16:26, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

A logo like this would be a good proof. Where can I find this logo?--Bravomike 18:10, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I just looked at the Star Trek Chronology; it said that the Starfleet Academy emblem seen in TNG: "The First Duty" gives the founding year of the Academy as 2161. That's what I was thinking of. As for Starfleet itself, I can't think of any evidence stating the pre-2161 Starfleet is any different than post-2161 Starfleet... except for this, but this graphic was illegible on-screen and is taken from the first edition of the Chronology (hence the dating errors). Still, it's canon. :P --From Andoria with Love 06:37, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

OK, thanks for this so far. We have some problems with this screen, too, and arguments about how to use it, but I'll report on Your researche. Hope, it will convince the skeptics.--Bravomike 17:00, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

PS: The Chronolohy is right about this logo, see Trekcore, MMCLXI = 2161--Bravomike 18:05, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

That link doesn't work, unless one clicks from this page: [1] it's in the middle of the 4th row. 76.200.146.221 23:32, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Academy logo, 2161

Try this. --Alan del Beccio 23:37, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

That is the same link as the first one. Why would you expect it to work any differently? 76.200.145.249 04:19, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Because not everyone is as smart as you, captnoreg. Besides, it works fine once you've gone there once. --Alan del Beccio 05:47, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Just copy the link and open it in a new tab.--Bravomike 11:46, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

For all this tripping over each other, it's the same logo found on the Starfleet Academy page, citation and all. --Alan del Beccio 18:35, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

This is something I have been racking my brain on in the last few days, due to a personal project of mine (although that's besides the point here, and doesn't matter, I know). I've always wondered firstly, if the Earth Starfleet seen in ENT was ever mentioned to serve Earth or United Earth. I've also been wondering through this to (as the mixed feelings towards the answer forces me into a debate on the naming scheme for the Starfleet's and their branches) if there is any possibility for Earth Starfleet being Federation Starfleet with expanded duties (along with ranks, organization, training and whatever else). One could possibly speculate (I tried to look for information aside from the mention on the UFP page {Which was a single line} that the military role of the F Starfleet came from the absorption of the MACOs and other military organizations of the UFP members.

One of the reasons I think it could potentially be the same organization, would be the fact (aside from the same name) that several branches of Starfleet (Such as Command, Medical, Communications, etc...) have the exact same name, and for the most part info from both Enterprise and the later series are included on one page (such on Starfleet Medical). Another reason is the fact some of the rank titles, and even the structure is the same in both Starfleets, and the fact in the MU episodes of ENT, the chars were referred to as "Starfleet Officer so and so" even the images and dialog (although, I realize the USS Defiant was written from the POV of the 23rd century, and it's been established that the Earth Starfleet Officers, MACOs, Vulcan High Command, Andorian Imperial Guard and whatever the Tellarites had were adsorbed into the F Starfleet)

There are of course, several differnt reasons for the organizations to be considered, named and be differnt. This would include the training and operation of the starship crews. It would also be explained as being differnt due to the more civilian and scientific (explorer) then the later incarnation which also had a militaristic role (although again, that could be explained). There's also several lines of a mentioned to something happening in Starfleet history, while ENT clearly showed that'd be wrong (such as the naming of ships named Enterprise, although I suppose even then, that could somehow be explained still).

I've also wondered about the branches, aside from Command, MA seems to have them being the same thing in both Earth, and Federation Starfleets (Medical is a good example). Following the logic of things being differnt, wouldn't the branches mentioned in ENT be differnt? If not, and they are the same (and it's known so) perhaps there should be some sort of mention of it's absorption/transference to F Starfleet from E Starfleet.

To the point, what I should ask, is the starfleets separate? How does the branches get written then, if branches have been mentioned in both Starfleets. --Terran Officer 06:07, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

To talk about the branches: This was one reason for us at German MA to start this discussion. At MA/de, you won't find a page about a branch of E Starfleet and its sucessor of F Starfleet on one page, there are two different pages everytimes, for example Starfleet Medical (F) and Starfleet Medical (E).
But this may be a effect of our canon policy and our POV policy, that are both more strict than yours (for example, articles in MA/de are written from a temporal neutral POV, so the first sentence of your article Starfleet (Earth) is "The Earth Starfleet was the primary space defense and exploration organization of United Earth in the early-to-mid-22nd century.", our article would beginn with "The Earth Starfleet is the primary space defense and exploration organization of United Earth in the early-to-mid-22nd century." In fact, wording is different, but the tense is present tense.)--Bravomike 06:33, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Two Star Fleets does not make a lot of sense. Nor does two "Star Fleet Intelligence" groups. What makes a lot of sense to me is the super-black "Section 31" being Earth only. Other Federation members would most likely have something like that themselves, if they can "afford" it, and don't have a major "issue" concerning it. Consider this: During the massive Dominion war, it would make a lot of sense for them to attack multiple Federation worlds at once (Did they?.) The ideal for the Dominion would be attacks on core Federation worlds. Also bad for moral. The Breen went after Earth, and who knows what else. When push comes to shove you want to compartment information that reveals to the enemy what your up to in every area.That has us, and the enemy knows it, worried the enemy is about to come through the front door. A deep cover group like "31" could/might find out if Earth was a target, they could evaluate if Star Fleet,if informed could do any thing about it, and do what they could one way or they other. Last, if defeat was "inevitable" as portrayed in "Yesterdays Enterprise" regarding the Federation/Klingon War of the other universe, a desperate approach could be to have pre-arranged ellements of "Star Fleet Intelligence", be sacrificed. (the official one, and that really works for the Federation by the way, its not a "cut out" of an organization.) (A really bogus intelligence group could, and most likely would in time be discovered). Its something like in the 1970's DCI William Colby revealed a lot of embarrasing stuff. He was accused of giving away the "family jeweles" Try to hide everything, and you most likely won't be able to hide what you must. (thats the term they really used, "family jeweles", despite my spelling.) Yet the USA and the CIA are still here, and go on, etc.)Hawks Echo

I was wondering what kind of status or attention this sort of thing was getting, I once again was looking through the various branches of both Starfleets. An example is Starfleet Medical, or Starfleet Academy (Earth). These pages have information from Earth Starfleet and Federation Starfleet. It gets confusing to have some pages with combined information, while on other pages insisting the two organizations are separate. I personally think, that for the "Federation" Starfleet Academy, it should have a "campus" section and describe/list the known campuses seen in the later centuries, and let the Starfleet Academy (earth) be for the information shown in Enterprise. Certainly this would go a long ways towards showing the differences in the two Starfleets as MA insists upon. So, any thoughts? --Terran Officer 21:23, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

I moved this discussion to this talk page in support of a merge suggestion. Section 31 is integrated, the facilities used for both Earth and Federation SF Command and Academy are the same, and likewise, we've merged Vulcan High Command, despite being something of two different entities performing the same function. If this is successful, related pages with corresponding qualifiers would be merged as well. --Alan 18:28, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Support merge. Starfleet's operating authority might have changed once the UFP was founded, but the organization did not. I think there are more hard facts supporting the idea that they are the same group than the other POV.

If the merge is successful, I would suggest that the category Earth Starfleet personnel should be merged as well.--31dot 20:34, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Support Merge, while there could still be evidence otherwise, and perhaps we had not received any real proof to say yay or nay, there seems to be to many variables, both through the episodes, movies etc... and here on MA to consider them both separate. Like Alan said above, while the operating authority (For the 22nd century, it seemed to be the command council, with the Federation Council taking it's place later on) had clearly changed, the basic principle at least, of the organization, has not.--Terran Officer 09:08, 6 July 2008 (UTC)