Fighter or dive-bomber?Edit
Could somebody please explain why comments about the Stuka being unsuited to a role as a fighter aircraft have been removed?
- Because they were opinionated comments which we try to avoid when writing articles. --From Andoria with Love 16:31, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
How are they opinionated? The Stuka was designed as a DIVE-BOMBER. It is not manueverable, nor fast enough to be used as a fighter. The real Luftwaffe knew this and never used them as fighters.
- It seemed like an opinion in that you were stating the craft were unsuited as a fighter. Others may think differently (even if, historically, there are better planes suited for that task). Keep in mind, this is an alternate timeline, afterall. In any case, feel free to re-add the statement. I won't remove it, but I can't guarantee no one else will. --From Andoria with Love 16:44, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
OK, Thanks. :)
It could be argued that they weren't *intended* to be used as fighters, when being fitted with the plasma cannon. The Stuka were, in our timeline, fitted with large anti-tank cannon. It could be inferred that it was against ground-based targets that the plasma cannon were attached to the Ju-87s, and that these were sent against Enterprise out of expediency - they were the closest, or the only squadron ready, or, or. :) ---Isha.
- Very good point. I have modified the speculation in the article to reflect this. As a fellow aircraft enthusiast, I agree with your assesment. --OuroborosCobra 04:06, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Stukas were never fitted with anti-tank cannon. They were fitted with the same type of cannon that the Messerchmits were fitted with. UNLESS the Stukas had been an experimental squadron (Which is Extremely unlikely because a. you don't usually have experimental squadrons flying in occupied territory and b. you don't attempt to experiment with weapons on your obsolete aircraft), it is extremely unlikely that they would not have Messerschmits/Focke Wulfs flying around with Plasma Cannons too. 188.8.131.52 19:06, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
- Obviously you need to re-read your history of the Eastern Front. The Ju 87G Stuka was fitted with 37 mm anti-tank cannons. In addition, in World War II the Germans were often flying experimental aircraft over occupied territory. They needed to, they were desperate. Also, you do experiment with weapons on older aircraft. You have a steady, well tested platform, and that is a good platform to add new weapons to. Also, the Germans had a great many Stukas, and they upgraded them with new weapons so as to make them still useful. --OuroborosCobra talk 19:42, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
OK, I'm getting rusty. But still, the German situation wasn't desperate in the US at that time, and you most certainly do not attach new weapons on an obsolete plane first.
- You do experiment with weapons on older aircraft. You have a steady, well tested platform, and that is a good platform to add new weapons to. In fact, that was standard practice at the time. It is still done to some extant today. For example, the RADAR of the F-22 was first tested ona Boeing 757, a twenty year old aircraft. By comparison, the Stuka in 1944 was less than ten years old. --OuroborosCobra talk 17:29, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
That's not the same. The Boeing 757 was hardly Obsolete, and there were certainly better aircraft to test it on than the Stuka. Particularly the Junkers Ju 88 and the Heinkel He 111. 184.108.40.206
- shakiing my head* I used the 757 because it was on the top of my head. If Imust, I will come up with other examples, but I am telling you that you are wrong, and that in aviation it is extremely common to test systems on old airframes. --OuroborosCobra talk 17:42, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- In 1994, the US Air Force decided to do testing of new software and RADAR equipment that would eventually make its way into the F-15. To do this, they selected an aircraft that was entirely obselete, and had been retired from service in 1991, the A-3 Skywarrior (first introduced in 1956, 38 years before this test, production ended in 1961, 33 years before this test). In fact, they had some difficulty finding an airframe in good enough condition for the test. At least the Stuka was still in service in 1944. --OuroborosCobra talk 18:11, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
What I will henceforth refer to as the "bada$$ opening" credits showed Stukas being used on Anti-Earth. Is is natural to assume that this implies the Stukas' existence and use in both worlds (and in turn, a German Reich of some sort of other)? --ChrisK 04:02, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
- If by both, you mean that the credits imply it existed in the mirror universe, then yes. As for the Third Reich, not sure. Could you upload a screenshot? --OuroborosCobra talk 04:09, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
- There are several planes seen in the opening credits. I'm not entirely sure which ones are Stukas (I know the fighter jet isn't, obviously), so I'll just upload pics of all of 'em and ya'll pick the Stuka. --From Andoria with Love 04:35, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
::Below what I think is the Stuka dive-bomber seen in the Mirror credits. --From Andoria with Love 04:45, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
I've just done a major clean-up of this page to bring it up to standard, by removing a lot of the "real world" info that has nothing to do with what was seen in Trek (ie the caliber of it's cannons). I think this'll make it consistent with other aircraft like the F-15 Eagle and F-5 Tiger II.
In case anyone is looking for it, the note about the Stuka being unsuited for it's fighter-esque role of attacking Enterprise, I've placed it below. I thought it was too conjectural and nitpicky.
- One would wonder why the Stuka was used against the Enterprise as Stuka's were not fighters and were rarely used for air-to-air combat. It is possible that they had originally been modified to carry plasma cannons for ground attack (many real world Stukas carried large anti-tank cannons for the same role), and that they were either the closest aircraft so armed, or the only ones carrying plasma cannons.
I've also added a reference from the IAMD credits in which it definitely appeared. I have a screenshot which could be uploaded, but I think the existing image of the Stuka is much better at illustrating it. Tanky 00:25, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
Removed info Edit
Removed the following real-world info not mentioned in canon, and might not be true in the altered timeline in which we see it.
Developed to assist in the Germans' revolutionary Blitzkrieg tactics, the Stukas would dive near-vertically towards a target and drop its 250kg bomb, giving the plane deadly accuracy. Though equipped with two 7.92 mm machine guns, the plane did not perform well in dogfights and relied on fighters such as the Messerschmidt Bf109 for escort. Nevertheless, the Stuka performed well on every German front in the war. In addition, the planes were equipped with air sirens to frighten enemy ground forces. (ENT: "Storm Front, Part II") --31dot 23:14, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
- I've re-added the sirens and machine guns, as that was stated in the episode (though 7.9 in the episode). --OuroborosCobra talk 23:42, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for fixing that- I just rewatched that scene and saw what you said.--31dot 23:50, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks for all the cleanup, as well as the arguments given by OC above (I was going to edit the page but saw it was already full of controversy. (Though my edits should be non-controversial.)
- As for the whole question of "why send Stukas in a dogfighting role," I don't think they were sent to "dogfight": the Enterprise was not a fighter craft suited for atmospheric engagements, so probably almost any WWII craft (aside from heavy bombers) could easily engage/outmaneuver it. Why waste newer, faster (and more expensive) aircraft when a better-armored (?) and armed (and readily available) Stuka would work? It seems moot.
- All this makes me want actually want to see the whole episode now. ;-)
Stuka in 20th century Mirror Earth? Edit
I know little about the episode, but was it made clear the Stuka shown in the Mirror Earth (opening credits of "In a Mirror, Darkly") was from the 20th century? Or is it speculation based on real-world as well as in-universe knowledge ("Storm Front")? If we don't know for sure, shouldn't we remove the part about the Stuka existing in 20th Century Mirror Earth?