Talk: Trill/archive

The question of Federation membership

I have seen no canon information leading to the solid conclusion that the Trill are Federation members. - Dice

Agreed, all we know for certain is Trill sometimes join starfleet, however, so did Nog and the Ferengi are clearly not members. Tyrant 13:50, 21 Jan 2005 (CET)

Curzon Dax was a Federation ambassador to the Klingon Empire in the 23rd Century. In order for him to represent the Federation -- he must therefore belong to a race that is a member of the Federation -- the Trill. One reason would be because he would have to have the Federations best interests in mind. The exceptions to this rule, of course, are K'Ehleyr and Worf, whom were both raised by or were part human(s), and therefore raised by the Federation. There is no evidence that Curzon was raised by or part anything other than Trill. --Gvsualan 19:41, 21 Jan 2005 (CET)

Whether this is suffisant or not to say trill is member, this is an awfull continuity problem. Trill have been known to mankind for one century at least, and close anough to have one uy working as federaton ambassador. and yet, nobody abard the Ent-d know about them. Are starfleet officiers illiterate? It would have been much better to just give another species name to DS9 Trills. -Rami

Italic textSeveral novels have suggested that it was little-known thing about them off-world until that time. Also remember, according to a couple of DS9 episodes, less than 1% of Trill are joined. -rob Italic text

Ah, I had forgotten that, nice point, excellent speculation. Tyrant 19:47, 21 Jan 2005 (CET)Tyrant

To be an ambassador of a political all that is required is citizenship of that group. Curzon may well have been a citizen of the Federation, but that does not mean that his people are

• Well, on that note. Lacking any clear statement of membership from one of the series, it would seem highly likely that Trill is a member world, but not known and therefore not canon. Tyrant 22:43, 13 Mar 2005 (GMT)Tyrant

• Worf was the federation ambassador to Kronos, which we all know is not a federation planet. This is not evidence enough. I just cannot beleive that none of the crew of the ent-d would have heard of a trill if they were federation members - there are only about 150.

Although a case can be made that an ambassador must be culturally from the planet and race he represents, in the spirit of Star Trek's message of social and racial equality I'm not sure there is a strict rule about this. I don't believe there is one human Ambassador who represents humans or the Federation or one Vulcan ambassador who represents all of Vulcan. Sarek was clearly the Vulcan ambassador to the Federation. But as we have now, there are numerous ambassadors from different countries who administer to other countries and territories. I'm not sure that in star trek, race would be a priority to represent a particular culture. Picard is often chosen to mediate disputes based on his diplomatic skills and his stature in Starfleet, not his race.

Therefore, if the ambassador is a well-traveled and capable diplomat, I don't see why there couldn't be a Tellerite Federation ambassador to Trill or a Trill Federation ambassador to Klingon who is later posted somewhere else. I don't think ambassadorships are definitive in scope nor is there a shortage of them.

• Please sign your posts with the 4 ~. Also, while it is true that Worf, member of a non-Federation species, was a Federation ambassador, and that both he and Nog joined Starfleet without being from a member species, it seems unlikely that the Trill are anything but members. Not only do we have Odan and Dax serving as Ambassadors for the Federation but we have seen multiple Trill in Starfleet. That level of integration into Federation politics and security would seem highly unlikely if they weren't members. Nog and Worf were exceptions, the only such exceptions for their species. Bajorans are another example. Even though Bajor was not a Federation member we saw various Bajorans in Starfleet. However, rather than being an argument against Trill membership the fact that it was clearly mentioned that Bajor was being groomed for entry into the UFP seems to indicate that such a widespread integration was really only possible for current or likely members as it would be a policy of the UFP to encourage future members to become involved at all levels. Logan 5 15:33, 15 Jul 2005 (UTC)

• There is a good fight to be made on either side, however, we still have no reference and are therefore only guessing. Jaf 02:57, 19 Jul 2005 (UTC)Jaf

• Note also that the trill scientist working on votexes was allowed to use the defiant. This points toward till being a member of UFP : i doubt starfleet would lent the Defiant to a foreign power, even a ally. --Rami

Perhaps the solution is a small note under the first paragraph saying something like,

The Trill are mostlikely members of the Federation for this this and this reason.

Jaf 03:09, 12 Sep 2005 (UTC)Jaf

• After giving this some thought: In a reality where a non-human is the presidant of Earth, it would seem that people are judged as individuals and not on race. An individual may be a member of the Federation without their homeworld or the rest of their species being members. And it seems likely that when dealing with individual dimplomats and scientists, the Federation would allow certain jobs and freedoms to individuals and not species, based on who they are and not what they are. Therefore, a non-Federation member (individual) might still get to fly a ship or work on peace talks without that saying anything about their politics or the politics of their species. In conclusion I see no reason to conclude that the Trill are members as a whole or that their planet is. (This is not to say that they are not, just that we really can't know at this point) Jaf 03:13, 30 Sep 2005 (UTC)Jaf
  • I really think that "most likely" is a better solution. We've seen too many Trill in Starfleet for me to think otherwise. Despite the egalitarian nature of the Federation it's been established that Starfleet is not nearly so accomodating and that you are either a member species or need special circumstances. And it's hard to think of special circumstances to cover that many Trill. Logan 5 03:30, 30 Sep 2005 (UTC)
    • Since Beverly Crusher had no prior knowledge about Trills I'm inclined to believe Jaf's point, that Trill haven't (yet) joined the Federation but individuals have applied to Starfleet, like Nog or Worf, on the recommendation of a Starfleet officer above the rank of captain. However, the number of Trills we've seen would suggest that their planet has applied for membership (or will soon). As for Federation Ambassadors, like Curzon Dax, I haven't heard of anything that would preclude someone representing the Federation unless they lacked the skills and qualifications. Dax knew Dr. McCoy in the 23rd century. It's possible, and likely, that McCoy was completely unaware of a Trill's symbiotic nature. Dax may have been an early (or only) Trill to make contact with humans.
      • Hardly, Emony Dax was judging a gymnastic competition and this was before McCoy had joined Starfleet Medical (or while he was still attending) so was most likely on Earth (and in fact was in the Lives of Dax book, which I know isn't canon but still). Regardless if she was a judge she had probably been well known in the interstellar gymnastics community well before then. My personal theory is that Dax had assumed the Trill on the Ent-D were a different species of Trill (they did afterall, look nothing like other historical Trill, Curzon and Joran both had spots so it's not a "recent mutation" it's more likely that the funny forehead Trill are a sub-species of Trill and so she was just startled.) Also remember that no Starfleet doctor could possibly be trained in every culture's physiology. McCoy barely understood Vulcan physiology and Vulcans were the first species to come into contact with Earth (and had been in such contact over 100 years). Curzon's existence as Federation Ambassador to Qo'Nos (DS9: "You Are Cordially Invited...") makes it extremely likely that they are in fact Federation members, joining probably before the mid 24th century (Curzons approximate lifetime). There are over 150 members of the UFP, to count the Trill out when the evidence for them as members thus established far outweighs the evidence against - seems silly. Cory 08 Dec 2005, 1450 EST

A little detail : In DS9 "Trials and Tribble-ations" dax, sisko, o'brien and bashir disguise themselves so they can remain unnoticed in the 23rd century starbase.

And dax masks her trills spots - this mayindicates that trill are not usual in starfleet at this time. --Rami

• After giving this some thought: In a reality where a non-human is the presidant of Earth, it would seem that people are judged as individuals and not on race. --------He wasnt the president of earth, he was the president of the federation, whos capital planet was earth. bad argument, it all boils down to cannon has it been said that trill is a member or not? the episode where miles and ezri go to vist her mom i think says that the federation has no influance there but that was the orion sector, however they did use a trill to make contac...ezris mom, i think thats as close as i have seen to a cannon ref.KetracelWhiteJunkie 00:29, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

• I found a detail that strongly supports Federation membership: in the episode "Dax" it is stated that Klaestron IV has an extradition treaty with the Federation to extradite a Trill criminal.--This user is not Jesus 06:17, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

• • I would consider this enough to move Trill's status back to definite Federation member. Cory 06:55, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Backwards

Did anyone notice, that in Rejoined, the trill symbol on the computer panel is backwords. When ever else we see it (Equilibrium, Prodigal Daughter) it's always the way we all know it. The pictures on the page. I just felt this should be pointed out. (In reality, this might even cause a diplomatic incident, think if a countries flag was upside down at a diplomatic function...) -AJHalliwell 18:24, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

Evolution of the (joined) Trill?

Is there anything known (or at least some good educated guesses) about the (Co?)-Evolution of these two sentient species? I know about this Progenitor "thing" to explain the abundance of humanoids with similar genetic makeup but then the symbionts on its own on top of that? A quick "genetic engineering" excuse?
My guesses would be they are either a degenerated (speaking about physical form) species since these "worms" don't seem to meet the requirements to evolve intelligence on its own and were then deliberately "integrated" – or they first were small parasites which then (in a race with the hosts immune system) evolved smarter and smarter and less parasitic and finally found the connection to the hosts nervous system (maybe facititated by a bacteriaplasmid like DNA exchange), the symbionts as they are now probably just contain brainmatter.

• • • um, wow, that doesn't make any sense, sorry, I'm confused here, they started out as bacteria, exchanged plasmids with humanoid hosts who were also sentient bacteria? and then they evolved into eukaryotes? pure gibberish, why would they have plasmids?? at all???

~~what?

Heh, well, the type of the early parasite organism doesn't matter that much: My point is that the parasite relationship could have turned into a symbiontic one by an exchange of genetic material, and this could have incorporated genes for a nervoussystem, explaining how they became sentient beings without and abundance of external senses, of course it could just as well have evolved on its own yet then the neuro-symbiosis would become much harder.
The nerve cells then gave the parasites an advantage etc. etc. and in the end they found the connection to the hosts brain. Here I just took "plasmid" as the prototype for an exchange of genes, not implying type of cells (is even this much mentioned about alienphysiology?).
The host and parasite would be multicellular since that is a requirement that some cells can specialize into nervecells, and in the beginning there might have been thousands of parasites per host competing against each other. And probably even before the neurosymbiosis the parasites/symbions gave some advantage to the host so maybe the hosts also evolved towards their symbionts to improve the synergy. -- 134.76.62.145 00:26, 18 Jul 2005 (UTC)

Why is this even here? This is pure speculation, and should be moved to Memory Alpha:Reference Desk. The symbiont's have been shown on TV to have intelligence, and sentience. It was also stated in an episode that the two were forced to join by some kind of disaster. Never were they mentioned as parasites (except in an insulting way) - AJHalliwell 01:54, 18 Jul 2005 (UTC)

In the TNG Trill episode (The Host, I believe) wasn't Odan unable to be transported, because that would damage the symbiont? Dax has certainly used the transporter plenty of times.

Maybe it's not all trill and just the Odan symbiont hated transporters. Remember, Dax was afraid of heights cause Curzon fell out of a tree once. Maybe a previous Odan was involved in a transporter accident. - AJHalliwell 23:53, 17 Aug 2005 (UTC)

Trill romance

I seem to recall in the episode Starship Down that Jadzia's claim that joined Trill are above romance was just a ploy to brush Bashir off. It certainly doesn't jibe with her subsequent behaviour, or with Odan's.

Symbiont or Symbiot ?

Is it possitive that the actual term is indeed "Symbiont"? "Symbiot" would seem more appropriate at least to me.

I believe you mean "symbiote" (with an e), as the term "symbiot" does not exist. ;) In any case, "symbiont" is the more common spelling and that is how it's spelled in all of the articles on M/A (as well as in the Trek scripts), so we will stick with "symbiont". :) --From Andoria with Love 23:12, 17 Aug 2005 (UTC)

Symbiote is a more scientific term, like those fish that ride on sharks. Symbiont is how it is spelled in all DS9 DVD subtitles I've seen, so I say keep using Symbiont. (although I do think they mean basically the same thing) - AJHalliwell 23:50, 17 Aug 2005 (UTC)

They do. I checked dictionary.com; the definition for "symbiote" is "see symbiont". :) --From Andoria with Love 01:53, 18 Aug 2005 (UTC)

From what I have seen, Symbiont appears to be the correct spelling in terms of the Trill on Star Trek. On Stargate SG-1, the word Symbiote is used for the Goa'uld. This sometimes causes mix-ups with Star Trek/Stargate fans. Enzo Aquarius 00:50, 3 Sep 2005 (UTC)

The traditional Greek "symbiont" is used in Star Trek, while the French "symbiote" is used in Stargate... They are the same word, in different languages. 68.62.92.137 03:45, 6 Jan 2006 (UTC)

Link to kriosian/Valtese ?

DS9 trills have exactly the same make up than these species (that are in fact the same one). May trills be a valtese/kriosian offroot, like romulan are exiled vulcans? Of course, we never heard than kriosians are a joind species. Mayb a few kriosians accepted to be joined to the symbiont, and leave their planet for trill ?

• Actually, they have similar make ups. Facially, their the same, but Kriosian spots don't go down their front to their feet, it goes down to their neck, then around to their back, and the two rows meet at a poitn about half-way down their back. Kamala wore some dresses that showed this in the TNG episode. - AJHalliwell 00:03, 3 Sep 2005 (UTC)
  • thanks. --rami

Guess for TNG vs DS9 trills

Several fan sites discuss the question to know why TNG and Ds9 trill looks so different. I have a personal guess : The name "trill" in fact refer to he species of the symbiot, not the humanoids. These symbiots have somehow developped the capability to be "connected" with two humanoid species, from two different planets. After centuries, both species tend to be refered as "trill" even though it's not a proper name. i recognized this explanation is not suffisant. For instance, when jadzia dies, they absolutely need to transplant dax into a trill. By constrast, Odan's symbiot can live in riker. -- Rami

... Or, and now this is a crazy idea, maybe it's just because the DS9 producers didn't like that look, and maybe every tiny aesthetic difference doesn't always need to be explained. Whenever Trek tries to back explain aesthetic differences we end up with fiascos like that Klingon virus nonsense. -- some guy

My guess: The DS9 Trills are the dominant style of Trills, and in these, the symbiont can (and does) form very strong relationship with the Trill and it is more of a partnership; quite ideal. The TNG Trill (like Odan) are simply another group who found that they could also join with these symbionts long ago, so they were also called Trill. However, the relationship here is not as good. The symbiont gains full control and the body is essentially a vessel for the symbiont. Since there isn't as strong of a relationship here, the symbiont can temporarily be transferred to another non-Trill, like what occurred with Riker. Since this joining is not as good as the first, it becomes less and less popular, so much to the point that we hardly ever see the TNG-Trill, even though they are still technically considered Trill. My take, anyway. -Platypus Man | Talk 05:24, 25 Dec 2005 (UTC)

• Well, considering that at least two sentient species evolved on the Trill homeoworld, it seems entirely likely that a third could have. Jaz 09:06, 6 Jan 2006 (UTC)

• It does seem possible that the term trill refers to the symbiote, not the humanoid species, given that during the hearing in "Dax," both Sisko and Tandro refer to Jadzia becoming a Trill, meaning she was not already one before she was joined. 69.249.38.60 03:44, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
  • I disagree. Only 1 in every 1000 trill are given a symbiot. When referring to the symbiot, it is called that whether joined or unjoined. The humanoids in question have been consistantly reffered to as the Trill, and those without the worm have been called unjoined trill. Also, please join MA. Click the blue link in the top-right corner of the screen and all you have to do is pick a name and a password - you don't even need to give an e-mail if you don't want to. Jaz ^{talk | novels} 03:57, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Two different races with similar names and similar biologies. EG: people from Ghana and Guinea might look alike, but they are from two different countries.

maybe it was falty genetic engineering LOL!!

Maybe a Trill Augment virus? :P --From Andoria with Love 20:14, 30 March 2006 (UTC)