Talk:Warp factor/archive

other warp 10 violations

Didn't they break the warp 10 barrier in "where no one has gone before"? w/ the traveller, and Wes and Kazinsky (sp?) 70.177.68.209 23:53, 18 Dec 2005 (UTC)

I think I may have figured out at least one reason which could account for Warp 10 having those unwanted hyper-evolution effects.

Warp propels object through a local spacetime distortion which prevents those nasty time dilations that Einstein was so generous to introduce us to. In theory, Warp 10 is infinite velocity, which is being everywhere in the universe at once. That has been established (although infinite speed would probably be a better term, as velocity indicates a specific direction which is simply not true if you occupy all points in the universe at once, implying that you occupy all vectors as well).

The keyword above is "local". If you can see both Jupiter and the Jupiter-II at the same time, then you aren't local, buddy. This could lead one travelling at infinite speed to experience time dilation.

"But Mr. Zeromaru, time slows down the faster you go. Why did Mr. Paris and Capin Janeway evolve really fast? Shouldn't they have seen the entire universe go by in the blink of an eye?"

Why, yes, Billy, if they were going at the speed of light. But they aren't. An object that speeds up to the speed of light will experience time slower. But after it surpasses the mass-energy barrier, what's to say that it will continue to feel like it is stopped? Perhaps, just perhaps, as it continues to accelerate, time will speed up again, reach a point where it's mass and energy return to the level that it is at extreme sublight speeds, but retain it's speed. So, as your speed approaches inifinty, then the passage of time will, as well. The rest of the universe will stop.

Of course, then one would say that they would simply grow old and die, rot away, and eventually enough time would pass so that every atom in their body decomposed into Hydrogen-0, as (to my knowledge) every element has an eventual half-life. After infinite time, this half-life HAS to be reached.

This is where you need to be a spiritual person. Their being is connected to the rest of the universe. Which means that their minds continue to exist along with the rest of the universe, but simultaneously see it stopped. I know this may be something hard to wrap your mind around, but remember that this article is about being everywhere in the universe at once. The entire idea of Warp 10 creates not only a Einsteinian and Cochranian impossibility, but a metaphysical one as well. You know something is hard when it's metaphysically impossible.

As a sidenote, this is meant to explain why Paris and Janeway evolved in the first place. Not why they evolved into those... things...

Another sidenote, I realize that I used the infiniteness of mass, energy, and speed back and forth between Eisteinian Physics and Cochranian Physics in ways that I shouldnt've. I predicted an object returning to a previous level of mass-energy at a faster-than-light speed. According to Einsteinian Physics, such a speed can't be reached because mass would become infinite, and the energy required to move the mass would also become infinite. In contrast, according to Cochranian Physics, reaching such a speed disregards mass, so energy doesn't have the asymptotic nature that it did before. But, like I said. Warp 10 cannot be local, so both Einstein and Cochrane could be right here.

Yet another sidenote, I use Einsteinian and Cochranian Physics a lot here. Einsteinian is a common term referring to those laws of physics laid out of Einstein. Cochranian is, of course, referring to Zefram Cochrane, since he built the human Warp Drive, though I have no idea if he also laid the groundwork for the Physics involved. -- Zeromaru said a mouthful at 7:25PM EST on 2005-2-18

Memory Alpha is not a site for personal commentary. --Gvsualan 00:40, 19 Feb 2005 (GMT)

My apologies, I was under the impression that the "Talk" pages were for discussion about the particular topic. As well, as far as I'm aware, discussion pages usually involve personal opinion, usually in informal speech. Now, if I had put this on the article itself, I would've been far more formal. --Zeromaru 12:50PM EST on 2005-2-19

Yes for discussions, not editorials. --Gvsualan 18:38, 19 Feb 2005 (GMT)

Not to throw a red herring into the mix, but "evolution" never took place in this episode. Some might consider it hair-splitting, but it's a fundamental misunderstanding prevalent among people today that evolution is an event rather than a process that occurs over time in response to environmental necessities (natural selection). What happened in "Threshold" was, at best, rampant individual genetic mutation. --McC 17:56, 19 Feb 2005 (GMT)

I beg to differ - I mean, yes they are mutations, but it was said to be natural and therefore evolution. Pulled straight from the episode, according to the EMH:

"The mutations observed are natural; the changes in Paris's DNA are consistent with the evolutionary development of the human genotype observed over the past four million years. The only difference between natural evolution and what happened to Paris was that his changes took place over a 24-hour period. Somehow, travelling at infinite velocity accelerated the natural human evolutionary process by millions of years. It's possible that Paris represents a future stage in human development." --Gvsualan 18:38, 19 Feb 2005 (GMT)

"Natural mutations" do not constitute evolution. It's an enormous brainbug (and the misunderstanding of evolution is one reason why Creatonists have unfathomably gained the foothold they have) that is prevalent among even learned individuals. However, evolution is defined as "Change in the genetic composition of a population during successive generations, as a result of natural selection acting on the genetic variation among individuals, and resulting in the development of new species" (emphasis mine, from Dictionary.com. Wikipedia's article on evolution is also well-written and informative. As noted by a number of individuals, the biological science behind "Threshold" is simply deplorable. "The mutations observed are natural" itself does not make sense, as genetic mutation is at once a natural and artificial process, responding to environmental stimuli. "Consistent with the evolutionary development of the human genotype" is an interesting statement, excepting that it doesn't account for the fact that the human genotype has changed in the way it has as a response to specific environmental stimuli. There's no (unless someone forgot to tell me...) discernable pattern to the changes. The final nail in the coffin is "the only difference between natural evolution and what happened..." The only difference? That difference nullifies the idea that "natural evolution" took place at all! I think the EMH was experiencing a computer glitch as a result of Voyager's stretched power reserved ;) --McC 18:59, 19 Feb 2005 (GMT)

Again, I apologize. I used "evolution" rather loosely. Evolution does take several generations and changes in environment. Paris and Janeway were one generation (well, two :P), and such an omnipresence would result in evolution into a non-corporeal being, anyway (not some lizard-like being). I would propose "natural metamorphssis" for Paris' transformation (think catepillar into butterfly). It's just that no human has ever lived long enough for such a natural metamorphisis. --Zeromaru 18:20, 22 Feb 2005 (GMT)

Yeah, metamorphosis is a more accurate term, I suppose. I still agree with Sternbach, though. ;) -- McC 01:20, 23 Feb 2005 (GMT)